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Discussion Topic: Not wrestling related, but...
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on August 9, 2013
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no one forced to sign Letter of Intent, Tony, thats a matter of individual choice.
if u don't like the terms --and i can see u don't-- then simply don't sign. It was your choice.
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Discussion Topic: Not wrestling related, but...
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on August 9, 2013
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Casey: although you do raise and excellent question as to where or when to draw the line, I do agree with Tony that they are monetarily profiting on someone else's name, image or likeness. To me, someone else profiting off of my image or name is not acceptable in any other arena of life, right?
I think back to John Fogerty, who, after going solo after fronting CCR for many years, was sued for sounding like ... wait for it ... CCR!!!
I bet the artist formerly known as Prince wouldn't let anyone get away with it!
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Discussion Topic: Not wrestling related, but...
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on August 9, 2013
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Quote from Mark Niemann's post:
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"To me, someone else profiting off of my image or name is not acceptable in any other arena of life, right?"
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and there is a lawsuit already, the O'Bannon case is in the courts now.
but bottom line, no one forced to sign NLOI.
(i'm the artist formerly known as #bookemdano --- i wish someone would "profit" off my name/image-- on coffee mugs, Tshirts, whatever-- they are welcome to it, at least i'd get a few free beers from it.)
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Last edited by Bob Preusse on August 9, 2013; edited 1 time in total
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Discussion Topic: Not wrestling related, but...
Casey Talbott added to this discussion on August 9, 2013
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Mark:
Note that I've yet to weigh-in substantively, albeit to the extent anyone cares.
I just want to see what Tony or any others are suggesting here, with respect to allowing student-athletes to "control their own names and likenesses".
Does the "market" truly control, with nothing outside the bounds?
Can I as a fan/booster give a kid a little something on the side for winning a championship?
Or perhaps better yet, can I pay him a little more to "take a dive" in a big game/match?
(I assume that in this new world student-athletes have the unfettered right to control their actions as well, right? Because that only seems fair.)
But again, what is the new world, and what are its parameters?
Are there any bounds, and assuming so, who if anybody is going to police them?
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Discussion Topic: Not wrestling related, but...
Tony Bradberry added to this discussion on August 9, 2013
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Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
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"no one forced to sign Letter of Intent, Tony, thats a matter of individual choice.
if u don't like the terms --and i can see u don't-- then simply don't sign. It was your choice."
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This is a cop out answer because you have no logical reason as to why anyone can own your name. I am basically done discussing the issue with you as you lack any counter argument other than take it or leave it. The NCAA and athletic departments have been granted certain government benefits (Non profit status, Anti Trust exceptions, etc) the idea they think they can own a persons name is ludicrous.
As to the question about boosters etc. Sure if they want to pay a kid money to do nothing go for it. As long as it doesn't come out of a schools pocket. The issue is we don't want to get into schools paying kids as then there would have to be fair pay to all athletes.
This would basically destroy non revenue sports as they do not bring in enough to offset the costs. By allowing any outside source to pay then you spare non revenue sports from the chopping block as the revenue producing sports could still support the non revenues.
The idea of amateurism is dated and impossible in today's sports landscape. We can all pretend that only the few programs we hear about are doing anything wrong, but the truth is it is going on everywhere. You think Cam Newton was the first guy to get six figures to go somewhere? No. There are runners everywhere disguised as recruiting services that funnel the money to the kids.
It comes down to we can stick our heads in the sand and pretend like they are "amateurs" or we can find a way to compensate them better without crushing all the non revenue sports. I will tell you this these lawsuits could cripple college sports as we know it in the end and that wouldn't be good for anyone.
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Last edited by Tony Bradberry on August 9, 2013; edited 1 time in total
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Discussion Topic: Not wrestling related, but...
Tony Bradberry added to this discussion on August 9, 2013
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Quote from Casey Talbott's post:
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"Mark:
Note that I've yet to weigh-in substantively, albeit to the extent anyone cares.
I just want to see what Tony or any others are suggesting here, with respect to allowing student-athletes to "control their own names and likenesses".
Does the "market" truly control, with nothing outside the bounds?
Can I as a fan/booster give a kid a little something on the side for winning a championship?
Or perhaps better yet, can I pay him a little more to "take a dive" in a big game/match?
(I assume that in this new world student-athletes have the unfettered right to control their actions as well, right? Because that only seems fair.)
But again, what is the new world, and what are its parameters?
Are there any bounds, and assuming so, who if anybody is going to police them?"
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What stops this from happening now? Cam Newton took a little extra (six figures is what was reported) to go to Auburn. Taking a dive for money actually could bring legal ramifications, but there is nothing saying it hasn't been done now anyways. I remember a story of a basketball player years ago paid to shave points. Just because it is against the rules now doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
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Discussion Topic: Not wrestling related, but...
Casey Talbott added to this discussion on August 9, 2013
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^^^I'm not talking about whether it may on occasion happen now, under the table and in violation of NCAA rules. I'm talking about whether you're going to welcome and permit it, and without potential sanction. Per your post, it sounds like you are. And in that event, then I think we'll all be looking at a true cluster.
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Discussion Topic: Not wrestling related, but...
Tony Bradberry added to this discussion on August 9, 2013
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Quote from Casey Talbott's post:
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"^^^I'm not talking about whether it may on occasion happen now, under the table and in violation of NCAA rules. I'm talking about whether you're going to welcome and permit it, and without potential sanction. Per your post, it sounds like you are. And in that event, then I think we'll all be looking at a true cluster."
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No you would not allow it (taking a dive). Now could you prove someone was paid for fixing an event and they claim it was for a sponsorship? No. As I said though it has happened in the past anyways so this is more of a straw man argument.
You also wouldn't allow payment to be in drugs. You also wouldn't allow sponsors to be alcohal, casinos or other vices the NCAA would rather there athletes not be involved in. My point is no system will be perfect, but this at least gives everyone an opportunity to use their own name.
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Discussion Topic: Not wrestling related, but...
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on August 9, 2013
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Tony: Ain't hatin. The point that the NCAA has rights to the name, image, and likeness of someone is ludicrous! (Unless I'm TOTALLY missing the point, I'm pretty sure this is Mike DiSabato's main point w/MMA.) The worst part is the governing body (in this case the NCAA) is making money off these things, all the while clamoring for the "concern of the student-athletes".
I'm not sure what it would look like if outside entities paid or had to pay for the rights to the individuals, but I think the individual should be the one collecting the revenue - not the university, the game, or some licensing company.
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Discussion Topic: Not wrestling related, but...
Ethan Moore added to this discussion on August 9, 2013
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How is the NCAA making money? It's a non profit - aren't proceeds invested back into other sports? If they finance all the other sports through profit made on football, I don't have an issue with it.
Discussing if someone's name can be owned is above my pay grade, but people like jay bilas lamenting non stop about how bad the NCAA is could lead to the demise of college athletics.
To cast institution as evil is silly. Hopefully bilas is considering the long term impact of his crusade.
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Discussion Topic: Not wrestling related, but...
Tony Bradberry added to this discussion on August 9, 2013
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Quote from Ethan Moore's post:
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"How is the NCAA making money? It's a non profit - aren't proceeds invested back into other sports? If they finance all the other sports through profit made on football, I don't have an issue with it.
Discussing if someone's name can be owned is above my pay grade, but people like jay bilas lamenting non stop about how bad the NCAA is could lead to the demise of college athletics.
To cast institution as evil is silly. Hopefully bilas is considering the long term impact of his crusade."
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Actually it was explained to me by one of the guys working with the IRS to have college athletic programs non profit status revoked. Basically they get away with not paying taxes on their revenue then pay huge salaries to their execs and feed the rest back to the athletic programs. The athletic programs which also have non profit status use the money to pay exorbinate coaching salaries and fund gaudy stadiums and training facilities. The reason they were given the status was to expand opportunities for all athletics but instead they just poor most the money into the big revenue sports. The persons i talked to said they basically are not following the deal.
When coaches make 3 million and players just get exspenses something is wrong. When the guys managing the not for profit are all making six figures and the athletes can't get money for their name something is wrong.
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Discussion Topic: Not wrestling related, but...
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on August 9, 2013
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Tony Bradberry said* "When coaches make 3 million and players just get exspenses something is wrong. When the guys managing the not for profit are all making six figures and the athletes can't get money for their name something is wrong."
I think the monetary value is irrelavent. The principle that an individual doesn't not own his personality but someone else does is "not cool"!
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Discussion Topic: Not wrestling related, but...
Steve Lester added to this discussion on August 9, 2013
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"I will tell you this these lawsuits could cripple college sports as we know it in the end and that wouldn't be good for anyone."
Hmm. I wonder about the good or not good part.
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Discussion Topic: Not wrestling related, but...
Jeff Esmont added to this discussion on August 10, 2013
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This is a very touchy situation, in that what is fair vs what can be done about it, may create a nightmare.
First and foremost, the Colleges and the NCAA are all about the money. The NCAA is concerned about their Partners maximizing their profits. It's really bullshit to think this is about the Student Athlete.
We can see how the Universities reacted with Title 9, using it as an excuse to dump any Mens Sport not the big two (half of the Wrestling Programs were dropped). Are we suppose to believe the Universities are losing money and had to drop Wrestling? Cause we all know how expensive a singlet is, haha. On the subject of not being able to afford it, please explain to me how most University now costs 8 times as much 30 years later. While the average pay has gone up less than 3 times? Sorry for the Rant
Now back to the main point of the discussion. There has to be a middle ground, and I believe the proposed D4 will be able to resolve part of it. I think there is only one sport (football) where this comes into play, and maybe BB. But for BB with the one and done, you don't see nearly as many jerseys worn. Plus, there isn't the same physical toll on the body..... One side says they (football Players), receive an education..... well, true, but is it fair to have all these people making Billions off these athletes; but what sacrifice do they make? What happens to those Athletes who leave College with a chronic injury? or worse yet, a concussion or other medical issues which go undiagnosed for 5 to 15 years?
My concern with having all Sports paid, is the number of Sports which will be dropped in the name of "keeping football competitive". The D4 might work. IMO Football is the only sport where the Athletes are really exploited, wearing Jerseys, stars stay at least 3 years and many 5 years, etc....
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Last edited by Jeff Esmont on August 10, 2013; edited 1 time in total
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Discussion Topic: Not wrestling related, but...
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on August 10, 2013
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well i guess i'm a loner on this issue, so be it, maybe i'm seeing it a bit cockeyed or maybe not?
but here's why i think the system is OK as is -not perfect, but workable- and imo we are better off for having NCAA governed football under current rules:
...would we be better off with nothing, nothing at all, no college div 1 football?? How would the student/athlete be better off with no available scholarships?? This includes ALL athletes, all sports, male & female, nobody would have anything.
...at, not all, but many div 1 colleges money from football supports all the non-revenue sports. No football, then few or no non-revenue sports at ohio st u. ---Title IX wouldnt be a concern.
...do some "STARS" contribute more to support NCAA football than the rest of the players?? Absolutely the do, but thats luck of the draw, when u accept a scholarship that comes with the territory.
...i don't think the "star" factor is a big deal, where the outrage comes from i don't understand. i'm sure Braxton Miller is happy right now to be an idolized hero.
...When div 1 scholarship football players move out of the dorms after their freshman year the money they are alloted for housing is way more than sufficient to pay for their off campus housing. Thats what jocks have told me anyway.
...Yes, many of the other football players are just along for the ride, but so what? lucky them. Guys grow up dreaming of being a buckeye, they are living their dream. They get room, board, fees, meals, tuition. Not bad for 4 or 5 years. And they get extras like free TUTORS.
..the best football players will get their money when its time to turn pro--or if pros don't work out the contacts they make are worth alot. If nothing else, they did get a education.
...whats the value of an education that many student/athletes would NOT have gotten if not for div 1 football ???
...do i like div 1 coaches making millions? NO i don't like it, but then again thats pro sports, the coaches are in fact pros. The players are amateurs.
...its why i hate the major league pro salaries-- few earn it, most have one good year, sign a big contract, then their career goes downhill. And a pro utility player makes more in a season than his dad did in his lifetime. College coaches are pros, making more than college president, ridiculous i agree.
remember one thing: in life major change often has UNintended negative consequencs, so think this issue out thoroughly. ...s/BobP
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