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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on May 19, 2008

Rex...I can't thank you enough for being a part of this forum. Great post and always major insight.

Excellent point concerning administration. Gable's book starts with the relationship a coach has with those above him.

One thing concerning our AD at Ohio State...he seems to know how to pick his coaches!



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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Dan Cosimi added to this discussion on May 19, 2008

Here is a list of the top 10 largest university campuses by enrollment:
1. Ohio State - Columbus, OH - 52,586 - Wrestling? YES.
2. Florida - Gainesville, FL - 51,913 - Wrestling? NO.
3. Arizona State - Tempe, AZ - 51,481 - Wrestling? NO.
4. Minnesota - Minneapolis, MN - 50,880 - Wrestling? YES.
5. Texas - Austin, TX - 50,201 - Wrestling? NO.
6. Central Florida - Orlando, FL - 48,699 - Wrestling? NO.
7. Texas A&M - College Station, TX - 46,542 - Wrestling? NO.
8. Michigan State - East Lansing, MI - 46,045 - Wrestling? YES.
9. Penn State - University Park, PA - 43,252 - Wrestling? YES.
10. Wisconsin - Madison, WI - 42,041 - Wrestling? YES.

Five out of the biggest ten universities in America have dropped their wrestling programs. We just lost the third-largest overall.

That's not good.



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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Rex Holman added to this discussion on May 19, 2008

Hank-

It is totally unfair. You don't have to tell me. But, that is the nature of an evolving society. It was good to be a male athlete pre-Title IX. Now women are given that same type of opportunity- a preponderance of opportunities with small commitment. We can sit and talk about it until everyone is up in arms and upset, but it is a collective statement about our social and political climate in this day and age.

I will give two examples when it it hit me hardest. I was at the OTC training, 29 y/o drilling with Dominic Black. Two of the heavyweight girls were down on the other end. I had spent pretty much my whole life from the time I was in fourth grade wrestling with the intent of being an olympian. Dominic says to me, " that girl is getting the same stipend that you are"; I replied with, this has not been a real good ROI. I am no way putting women's wrestling down, but the point is I worked really hard and made absolute sacrifices to get there and there is no reward for doing so.

Secondly, at work I was discussing sports at tOSU with a coworker who was a women's rower. As she explains, she was an athlete without a sport when she arrived at tOSU. To make a long story short, she earned a crew scholarship. I worked in the same office as women's crew, and the coach had informational meetings at the student union in order to get numbers up on his team. I think that correctly illustrates the nature of opportunities in college athletics in the last two decades.

Can you imagine starting a program where ADs were falling over themselves trying to get you money and facilities. How nice would that be?

Unless, you are gifted with skills corresponding to football and basketball, you should probably weigh the options very carefully as to what you are trying to accomplish in life and always have a contingency plan. My contingency plan came in the form of a wrestling buddy that suggested I look at becoming a FF-EMT once I was done wrestling.

Is the situation fair? No. Is life fair? Not so much. Again, the lesson is to concern yourself with making your wrestler develop life skills and becoming a good moral person as wrestling is a just vehicle to accomplish that. If we focus on just performance and winning, then you wind up with performance enhancing drugs, cheating, win at all costs attitudes, childlike behavior, and socially irresponsible yahoos being the role models for the next generation.



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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Dan Cosimi added to this discussion on May 19, 2008

Here are the public state universities in Ohio (enrollment figures from wikipedia):
1. Ohio State - 59,091 - Wrestling? YES.
2. Cincinnati - 36,415 - Wrestling? NO.
3. Kent State - 34,056 - Wrestling? YES.
4. Ohio - 28,804 - Wrestling? YES.
5. Akron - 23,539 - Wrestling? NO.
6. Toledo - 19,480 - Wrestling? NO.
7. Bowling Green - 18,989 - Wrestling? NO.
8. Miami - 17,161 - Wrestling? NO.
9. Wright State - 15,985 - Wrestling? NO.
10. Cleveland State - 15,664 - Wrestling? YES.
11. Youngstown State - 13,157 - Wrestling? NO.
12. Shawnee State - 3,798 - Wrestling? NO.
13. Central State - 1,820 - Wrestling? NO.

That's four out of thirteen. Not good.

Out of the twenty-three public state community and technical colleges in Ohio, there are fourteen that sponsor intercollegiate athletics (this does not count intramural and club teams), we are zero for fourteen (0-14!!!) in them having wrestling programs. These schools would be NJCAA schools.



Last edited by Dan Cosimi on May 21, 2008; edited 2 times in total

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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Scott Shaw added to this discussion on May 21, 2008

I will be honest, this whole thing sickens me. As Gable said, "I don't get sad anymore, I just get mad," when asked to respond to ASU's demise. Because it just makes me mad, I haven't read the entire six pages of posts here, so excuse me if this has already been brought up.

Does it surprise anyone that Congressman Rick Renzi - Arizona 1st District - has not spoken out about this situation when he had at least two sons, that I know of, that wrestled at Arizona State. Jason Hackett, when he was attending ASU, traveled to a lot of open tourneys with the Renzi's.

I just thought that it was curious that we keep talking politics and how they are involved in this situation and the most closely related politician to the whole thing, hasn't said a word that I have heard. You might think that Congressman Renzi and Congressman Jordan could and would have something to say on Capital Hill about this. But what do I know?

Good luck to ASU, I hope that they can raise the funds and have their program back.



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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on May 21, 2008

forget Congressmen and that type nonsense--- a Congressmen unless he is a 30 year vet and head of a powerful committee has no power, he might not even be in office next year. There are about 600 Congressmen/women in America, big deal. And they have much bigger worries right now.

The battle has been raging for 36 years now, time to think in alternative ways and stop beating a dead horse. The pie is only so big and not getting bigger, any college with Div I football is at risk . We got a good bout of inflation coming in this country, if you have a $ 40 million athletic budget, you are going to need 42 million a year from now to stay even.

college wrestlings best hope is programs at schools that do NOT have Div I football-- thats right, think about it: Sacred Heart, Appalachan St, NC-Greensboro, Gardner Webb, East Stroudsburg, American, Drexel, Rider, Millersville, Cal St Bakersfield-- schools like this that have Div I wrestling BUT NOT Div I football are the sports best hope at the college level because this list can be expanded massively too.

There alot of schools like this in America, that cannot afford King Football, but might want to be a player in Div I college wrestling


Russ Hellickson asked me once, "Which Ohio Div I wrestling college has the best chance to retain the sport?" I answered Cleveland St, he nodded Yes. Think about it.



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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Scott Shaw added to this discussion on May 21, 2008

Good point about the Sacred Heart's and the Millersville's of the country.

In Ohio that would include University. of Dayton and Youngstown State (as well as the above mentioned Cleveland State) but they both dropped teams and that was without DI Bowl Division football so that may be a stretch.



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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Brian Nicola added to this discussion on May 21, 2008

1) The Univeristy of Dayton cut their men's team in 1995 to add rowing. It was ridiculous because we were so cheap to run. They added rowing and women's track and also cut men's water polo, which had a national team member as its captain. It bothers me everyday that we didn't fight the hell out of it, but frankly, no one ws sure what was going in, it happened so quickly.

2) Rex- You must admit that the women's national members are a lot different now than in 1998. I think you would be hard pressed to find a female who hasn't had the same buy-in as her national male counterparts. I am not debating ability, rather, committment.

The current interpretation of Title IX is a cluster. It makes me sick to my stomach, literally. However, no one can argue that female sports haven't evolved significantly since its introduction. The real crappy part of it is that ADs have spun it to save money rather than enhance.

Also, and I may be met with great disdain, but I find the constant use of "feminist" as synonymous with "radical feminist" a bit odd. A feminist is simply someone who thinks women should have the same righst as men (not more, and not at the expense). If you have a daughter that you think should get to take PreCalc, then you have feminist tendancies. It is simply a term that has negative connotations because of the radical group.

BRN



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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on May 21, 2008

FACT: There are more females in college than males, women are free to take whatever courses they can handle in America. Feminists made their point long ago, women in America are free to pursue whatever they are capable of, which is as it should be.

the Ohio State U band example i already gave is one of the best illustration of nonsense that went on up until 1972. TBDBITL had ZERO female members , they werent allowed, but now they have 59 female members. So without question there were wrongs that needed to be righted and have been righted.

So enough about feminists already, if someone makes a point of telling you they are Feminist it usually means you are going to regret asking her out on a date, ha, ha.

Title IX, as in everything the pendelum swings too far and now we have Unintended grave Consequences decimating mens sports.

King Football aint going away and aint compromising, so i say the future of Div I wrestling is schools like the dozen i mentioned such Sacred Heart, American, Millersville, NC-Greensboro, Bakersfield et al that are NOT burdened by King Football, but may wish to be a player --at much less expense-- in Div I college wrestling.

OK so Youngstown and Akron and Dayton and Cincinnati dropped wrestling, those are strong Fooball colleges too --- there are alot of other candidates that may wish to have a Div I Wrestling program. Ashland ?? John Carroll, Mt Union ?? New fertile ground perhaps ???? The NWCA should explore it thoroughly.



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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Rex Holman added to this discussion on May 22, 2008

Brian-

Women's wrestling has come a long way in the last 10 years. I saw it evolve in the ten years prior to that with Tricia Saunders (Andy McNaughten's sister) working out at ASU and becoming the face of women's wrestling. Tricia is a stud with extreme dedication. So are a lot of other women.

I am a fan of anyone that wrestles, man or woman. It takes a certain mentality to do so. A woman that wrestles is usually in the 99% of toughness of the women's population. It is a very admirable trait.

I made my point based upon the amount of time and energy I put into wrestling comparative to the female counterparts that I referenced. One of the women look liked she had just begun wrestling and was a national team member. I was pointing out that wrestling had nonequitable reward determined by gender, which is a symptom of a broader trend in sport.

Women are at a zenith of opportunity that may get a little better, but not much. Now is the time to capitalize on chartering women's wrestling programs. Chartering a women's program is a numbers game. I think there are a handful of women at any one high school that have the attitude, desire, and grit to pursue wrestling. I think the best bet is to do what you do and have a combined team where you embrace women's wrestling and set up competitions against evenly matched opponents male or female.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on numbers and growing a woman's program.



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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Nicholas Sestito added to this discussion on May 23, 2008

ASU's wrestling program has just been reinstated.



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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Brad Proudfoot added to this discussion on May 23, 2008

Here is a link to the official Arizona State website.

http://thesundevils.cstv.com/genrel/052308aaa.html



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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Rex Holman added to this discussion on May 23, 2008

Money, money, moneeey-----------Money.



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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on May 23, 2008

Quote from Rex Holman's post:

"Money, money, moneeey-----------Money."



Rex: I can almost hear you singing. I prefer to watch you wrestle <smiling>

I am thrilled ASU is back. I think it's clear that the program never needed to be dropped--it just needed some financial assistance. I wonder if Lisa Love will end up in trouble over how she handled this situation. Certainly, she has upset some major donors to ASU.



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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on September 18, 2014

My how times have changed!



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