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Discussion Topic: Brooks failed PED test at U23
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on May 6, 2024
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Quote from Rex Holman's post:
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If someone looks like they are on another level, rather than be awed by it; it makes me look at it a little closer.
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Rex,
As you might possibly remember, as I am a serious cyclist, and I am having exactly this issue with Tadej Pogacar who is leading the Giro d'Italia right now.
His performances are so out of this world that it has to make anyone wonder what might be going on. He is kicking the crap out of all of the very best cyclists in the world on a regular basis. As an example, he raced 10 times prior to the start of the Giro and won 7 of those races. Many riders won't win 7 races, at this level, in their career.
When things just don't make sense to me, I have to go "hmmm". I sure hope that I am wrong.
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Last edited by Jim Behrens on May 6, 2024; edited 1 time in total
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Discussion Topic: Brooks failed PED test at U23
Alex Creech added to this discussion on May 6, 2024
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This is pretty disappointing that the initial reaction is that he must be cheating.
Do any of you take Adderall or know someone close that does? I'd be careful about calling it "speed", it's not the same.
I'm pretty sure most people who truly need to be on Adderall would wish they didn't need to be.
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Discussion Topic: Brooks failed PED test at U23
Rex Holman added to this discussion on May 6, 2024
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Jim-
Sounds like where there is smoke, there is fire.
I'd like to know how many starters at each program are diagnosed with ADHD and use methylphenidate.
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Discussion Topic: Brooks failed PED test at U23
Alex Creech added to this discussion on May 6, 2024
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Quote from Jim Behrens's post:
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Quote from Rex Holman's post:
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If someone looks like they are on another level, rather than be awed by it; it makes me look at it a little closer.
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Rex,
As you might possibly remember, as I am a serious cyclist, and I am having exactly this issue with Tadej Pogacar who is leading the Giro d'Italia right now.
His performances are so out of this world that it has to make anyone wonder what might be going on. He is kicking the crap out of all of the very best cyclists in the world on a regular basis. As an example, he raced 10 times prior to the start of the Giro and won 7 of those races. Many riders won't win 7 races, at this level, in their career.
When things just don't make sense to me, I have to go "hmmm". I sure hope that I am wrong."
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Except he's been beat the last 2 tour de france's, pretty soundly in the last one. Or is Jonas cheating more?
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Discussion Topic: Brooks failed PED test at U23
Rex Holman added to this discussion on May 7, 2024
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A quick search
https://www.NCAA.org/sports/2014/1/3/adhd-and-the-student-athlete.aspx
https://www.espn.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/66742/are-too-many-players-being-given-a-therapeutic-use-exemption
One of the reasons I love this site is that it has intelligent insights. It allows for discussion on a lot of topics in wrestling. Personally, I don't think anyone has crossed any boundaries here or made unnecessary or unwarranted accusations.
To thought police people and shame them is becoming way too common.
Also, to give a complete ok to anything due to a medical condition without scrutiny is devoid of thought.
By that logic, you would just let transgenders take over women's sports. Ridiculous.
Also, when words become offensive, say for example using the slang term speed to refer to a psychoactive stimulant with a brand name, medical name and chemical structure, you are still describing the same thing or some property of it. Does it really matter?
It's therapeutic, it makes you a better version of yourself. Without it, you would be less.
Pretty sure when I finished a morning run and went to study afterward only to find myself reading the same page over and over that it could have been diagnosed under today's terms.
From the articles above 5-18% of adult population may have ADHD; which means statistically 0-2 starters on a team of ten starters would have ADHD. If 3 or more are diagnosed and use prescription speed; is it a coincidence or culture?
I think Kerry McCoy who should've won the 2000 Olympics, but he ran into Artur Taymazov in the quarterfinals and lost 8-7, they couldn't review the tape as it was 'erased'. Taymazov was caught for doping years later. If you think that he won 3 Olympic Gold medals while competing clean, then I think you have your head in the sand.
Countries and people go to great lengths to win medals, bribing and doping are two modalities and they don't even think twice about it.
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Discussion Topic: Brooks failed PED test at U23
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on May 7, 2024
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Quote from Alex Creech's post:
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" Except he's been beat the last 2 tour de france's, pretty soundly in the last one. Or is Jonas cheating more?"
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Well, now you are into my wheelhouse and you ask an interesting question. The honest answer is that I do not know. What I do know is that the races are being ridden considerably faster that during the days of heavy doping by everyone. That doesn't pass the smell test for me.
Regarding your specific question, Tadej races on instinct and damn the torpedos. Jonas races in a much more calculated manner. He also concentrates on one BIG race per year while Tadej races everything and races them to win.
In 2022, it was stage 11 in the Tour when Jumbo-Visma (Jonas team) collectively ganged up on Tadej to wear him down. This was after Tadej had 3 stage wins already. He is a born racer and can't seem to resist going with every move. That was to his detriment in this race. He lost approx 3 minutes that day when he cracked and that is just too much to make up.
In 2023, Jonas had an out of this world performance in the stage 16 time trial. Tadej is a very good time trial rider and yet Jonas beat him by 1 minute 38 seconds. The rest of the field was FAR behind. I am sorry but at this level I just have to question how it was done.
I have been racing bikes for 50+ years and I have worked with a number of pro teams over the years. If anyone believes that "enhancements" are not being used, I have some swamp in Kansas to sell you.
BTW, I am not saying Brooks is clean or dirty but there are rules to be followed. If he tested positive (assuming he has a TUE) and the proper paperwork is not filed, that is 100% on him. He isn't stupid and he knows the rules. As Hank asked, how is this any different than not making weight?
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Discussion Topic: Brooks failed PED test at U23
Alex Creech added to this discussion on May 7, 2024
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I agree with everything you say Rex, except the speed comment. Being on prescription Adderral is not the same as being on speed. I don't have an issue because I think people's feelings could be hurt, it's just factually wrong.
My comment about being disappointed that people's first inclination is to assume cheating isn't personal, it's true. It's unfortunate but probably justified given the number of high profile athletes that have doped.
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Discussion Topic: Brooks failed PED test at U23
Brian Mathews added to this discussion on May 8, 2024
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Both amphetamine and methylphenidate are performance enhancers, full stop.
If this is something you're taking for medical reasons, I find it extremely hard to believe an athlete of Brooks' caliber wouldn't be on top of the procedural element of getting it pre-approved. Clearly his coaches and training staff would have been aware of this.
Re: PED use more broadly--I believe it's prevalent, and it's not going away. NCAA testing is woefully inadequate--athletes are obviously aware of this. Actual solutions are just far too expensive with the number of athletes we're talking about.
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Discussion Topic: Brooks failed PED test at U23
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on May 8, 2024
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Quote from Brian Mathews's post:
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PED use more broadly--I believe it's prevalent, and it's not going away. NCAA testing is woefully inadequate--athletes are obviously aware of this. Actual solutions are just far too expensive with the number of athletes we're talking about."
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100% accurate, just like with the NFL, NBA, and MLB. However, with those three groups, they don't want to find anything so when a "test" is coming, the athletes know all about it. Anyone in those groups who gets caught is just stupid.
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Discussion Topic: Brooks failed PED test at U23
Alex Creech added to this discussion on May 8, 2024
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Quote from Jim Behrens's post:
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BTW, I am not saying Brooks is clean or dirty but there are rules to be followed. If he tested positive (assuming he has a TUE) and the proper paperwork is not filed, that is 100% on him. He isn't stupid and he knows the rules. As Hank asked, how is this any different than not making weight?"
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Never debated this. If he didn't file the paperwork, that's on him.
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Discussion Topic: Brooks failed PED test at U23
Rex Holman added to this discussion on May 10, 2024
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Waited a couple days on this to reflect, get some anecdotal input, and phone a (best) friend who has a PhD in pharmacology and literally does everything in the field of testing racehorses. I wanted to determine whether I was irresponsible or reckless in assigning the term speed to a class of drugs used to treat ADHD.
Nope.
I use it as a blanket term to cover amphetamines. They work on the dopamine pathway. They create a surplus of dopamine in the brain. Some of these drugs have different mechanisms of action and produce varying effects.
Also, I realize that it is sacrilege to talk about anyone with a medical condition. However, I don’t agree with this as long as I’m trying to get at the truth.
Anecdotal; what I already knew but asked anyway. Some people cannot function effectively without the drug. An example would be a finish carpenter who could do framing work if you could get him to stay on task. However, while on the drug he can put in meticulous detail to which the highest standard is upheld.
So, an individual with ADHD and TUE would be able to focus on tasks uninterrupted by distraction and create detail within their game that would be unattainable otherwise. One could posit that it could catapult a game into the 1% category of all competitors if their fundamentals were sound, which would otherwise be much, much lower. Athletes would be lesser versions of themselves if they were not on this medication.
At the current rate, 0.008% collegiate wrestlers become 4x NCAA Champions. My math. Since 1990, average 25 wrestlers per team x average 90 teams x 35 years = 78,750 wrestlers. Pat, Cael, Logan, Yianni, Carter, Aaron (6). 6/78750 = 0.00007619. It is fair to say that Aaron would not be amongst that group if he were not prescribed that medication as he would be a lesser version of self. Also, it is fair to question whether he would be at Penn State.
This class of drugs improves performance especially in the sport of wrestling. One of the premises I point out is that championship matches are usually won by one sequence of events or position that determines outcome. A lot of times it is because there is a mental lapse, or someone simply gets overwhelmed with pace and cannot process quickly enough to maintain and improve position. A person who has enhanced focus and abundant energy would be at a huge advantage over an opponent who is becoming mentally and physically depleted. That one position or sequence could be determined by a chemically induced state.
I’d like to see Brooks rematch Hidlay with one exception. Hidlay gets exemption for Adderall. Hidlay was outpaced but is excellent fundamentally. Just dose enough so that his focus and energy were not depleted during the course of that match and effectively take pace out of the equation.
I wonder if Hidlay has come to the realization that he was outpaced in the finals by an opponent with TUE.
A quick search reveals that 'many' ADHD sufferers don't get the high feeling of euphoria and self-confidence.
That being said, everyone metabolizes medicines according to their own personal chemistry and their ADHD treatment effects would theoretically fall somewhere along a spectrum of none to all.
A diagnosis and treatment means various things to different people. For every person that does not get the high, there are some that do or get a varying degree of that effect.
There are going to be varying degrees to focus, alertness, euphoria, self-confidence, weight maintenance and energy. Adderall seems to be the sledgehammer in this class of prescribable drugs in terms of positive neurocognitive enhancement and mood. To make a blanket statement that all ADHD sufferers only get a minimum of therapeutic benefits that does not spill over or enhance other attributes is disingenuous.
We have all heard of exercise induced asthma. Well in that case, Is there exercise induced ADHD? I gave an example of trying to read a textbook after running stadiums and found myself rereading the page in a perpetual loop. I could not maintain focus for a 1–2-hour window post intense physical activity. Is this a type of ADHD? My focus and energy were depleted. Yet, TUE athletes get a big bolus of dopamine which allows their focus and energy to stay intact.
When I see wrestlers outpace others it draws my attention. When that pace is beyond what I’ve seen it’s a red flag. As mentioned before, some red flags this year and it wasn’t Brooks.
My best friend since kindergarten is academically the most interesting guy in the room. He has specialized knowledge, not the Jason Bourne stuff, but the pharmacology and testing type. He agreed that psychoactive stimulants could be referred to as speed on forums and informal settings. They speed up the brain.
Sherlock Holmes is a fictional character by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. One thing Sherlock Holmes does is sequester himself while high on cocaine to become hyper focused, super meticulous, look at every detail and piece together conclusions that he would otherwise be unable to make. In doing so he becomes the world’s greatest detective. I think it is a good example of art imitating life. In order to be the very best, chemical assistance makes it possible.
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Last edited by Rex Holman on May 10, 2024; edited 1 time in total
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Discussion Topic: Brooks failed PED test at U23
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on May 10, 2024
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Fascinating post, Rex. You give us an understanding into why a wrestler using Adderall could have a significant advantage.
A couple things:
1) You skipped on of the four timers. His name is Logan Stieber.
2) Mitch Mesenbrink wrestled an ungodly pace which compensated for the fact other wrestlers seemed clearly better (Carr and Hamiti). I'd be curious as to if he's on adderall. I wonder if you've had a similar thought?
I wonder what Hidlay is thinking? I wonder what David Taylor is thinking? I wonder how many other PSU wrestlers are on Adderall?
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Discussion Topic: Brooks failed PED test at U23
Rex Holman added to this discussion on May 10, 2024
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Hank-
I knew it looked shy of one. Oops. No disrespect meant. Going to edit.
I want to know how many PSU wrestlers have TUE.
If Messenbrink isn't on a TUE, I'd be surprised.
Brook's error helped me connect some dots and understand things better.
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Discussion Topic: Brooks failed PED test at U23
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on May 10, 2024
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LM4CKTKe4ow
Brooks interview today. He talks about the drug rumors which he said was Vyvanse, not Adderall (I have no clue how they are different) - and a shot at an unknown person (but not hard to guess who he's talking about).
His view of the Zahid match is told with his rose colored glasses on.
Makes some interesting comments -- which seem to be questionable at best and petty or antagonistic at worst -- about D.T. who has only publicly been complimentary about Brooks.
I really like Brooks -- but not this interview.
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Discussion Topic: Brooks failed PED test at U23
Alex Creech added to this discussion on May 11, 2024
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I respect your insights Rex, but you're still wrong.
There's a difference to what Adderrall does to an ADHD brain and someone without ADHD. Do some more research.
You don't know anything about Brooks situation, but you sure seem convinced he's guilty of something because of his performance. Do you think the same about Logan, Taylor, Cael, Ruth, Dake, Steveson, Snyder? Their performances were other worldly.
You won a NCAA title in 1993 and went 29-0, seems pretty other worldy to me.
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