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Discussion Topic: Ohio HS wrestling is down? Explain that to me
Ethan Moore added to this discussion on November 16, 2022
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I see that narrative on here from time to time. I'm curious about this perspective.
I now live outside of Ohio and follow college wrestling closer than high school. However, from a couple states away Ohio still seems like one of top 2-3 talent producing states in the nation.
I saw Josh Lowe post his top 50 teams for this season: 5 are from Ohio. I believe the Jr. Dual team finished runner up to Iowa this summer.
However, it does seem like the true 'elite' wrestlers aren't coming out of Ohio, is that accurate? Because the depth of top HS teams and the commitment numbers seem good.
Another note - while perhaps NE Ohio has downgraded vs. years past, it sure seems like Columbus/Cincinnati are improving. I noticed commitments just this morning from Columbus to great programs: OSU (Birden) and Penn (Wilson).
I guess the only omission in the current Ohio landscape is that no one seems to be landing at Penn State or Iowa. Which are probably the two elite programs (along with OSU) at this point.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio HS wrestling is down? Explain that to me
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on November 16, 2022
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National rankings used to be dotted with Ohio kids. Not anymore. There are still strong programs but there's a big gap between the studs at schools and the rest of the state. There's a reason Tom Ryan has moved to PA as Bob P noted.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio HS wrestling is down? Explain that to me
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on November 16, 2022
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Discussion Topic: Ohio HS wrestling is down? Explain that to me
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on November 16, 2022
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Quote from Mark Niemann's post:
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"Ebbs and flows."
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I hope you're right.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio HS wrestling is down? Explain that to me
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on November 16, 2022
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reasons: its largely cultural & economic, example Mike Milkovich built Maple Heights on shoulders of tough blue collar kids and immigrants kids. Milkovich himself told me "as a kid his immigrant family did not have enough to eat". Theres just not as many tough and competitive kids anymore.
in Cleveland area, loss of manufacturing & trade jobs which breeds football and wrestling --- led to devastating loss of CYO programs (Catholic Youth Org. St Richards alone spawned many st Eds studs plus powerful N Olmsted teams) and YMCA (E Cleveland Y the likes of Lee Kemp, Shawn Garell). N. Akron Y (fed the great Walsh Jesuit teams and indiv like Harry Lester, note whered WJ program go??) Longwood Y (Alan Fried.)
and loss of so many high caliber coaches that stayed in the profession, they just disappeared. Hank knows what it was like to coach in the Mentor Meatgrinder in the 70s, 80s, 90s.
At one time Ohio challenged PA, in fargo, at Senior Nationals, in high ranked kids, but something changed 20-25 years ago and is finally showing up. Fargo still very competitive thanks to certain coaches who have stepped in to get the best Ohio kids competing. But widening gap is PA huge numbers of College NCAA Quals and AAs, No one close. And Ohio recently slipping.
my opinion why PA is king, theyve done the best job of maintaining their states tradition-- even many small towns have studs not just the big name schools-- they have clubs that teach a college style and coaches who stay in the profession. Bottom line it just means more over there.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio HS wrestling is down? Explain that to me
Jared Ball added to this discussion on November 17, 2022
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I agree with Bob. I also think in the last ten years the biggest drop off might be attributed to one program. Graham consistently had multiple highly ranked national guys. I’m the most recent years that has not been the case since the retirement of Jordan. I point to that as a recent contributing factor.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio HS wrestling is down? Explain that to me
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on November 17, 2022
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Bob...Do you think the downward trend will continue or do you think the upcoming investments by Intel and Honda will cause population growth in more blue collar families?
Also, do you see the emergence of the clubs as a possible equivalent to the old CYO and YMCA set up?
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Discussion Topic: Ohio HS wrestling is down? Explain that to me
Rex Holman added to this discussion on November 17, 2022
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Because wrestling is hard and like Dano says "culture has changed."
A lot more value was placed on toughness. Our parents were brought up by parents that lived through the Great Depression.
Our parents really did'nt give us an out with excuses. You just went about your business.
Nowadays, everyone is quick to point out the intrinsic difficulties in things and create excuses.
We have immediate gratification at our fingertips.
Toughness is not an admirable quality amongst the masses now. I can understand that based upon my vantage point at this point in life.
Paraphrasing the Great Tom Miller of Oak Harbor, in this world, if you wanna be dumb, you gotta be tough.
Being smart is so much easier.
Albeit, the willingness to endure hard times is what qualifies one as resilient.
Wrestling breeds resiliency when the underlying lesson is adopted.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio HS wrestling is down? Explain that to me
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on November 17, 2022
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We run a little youth wrestling program at Shaker and what I've noticed is interesting. The young kids we attract enjoy practice. They like being taught skills and lots of rigorous physical activity. Most, however, are not crazy about competition esp. at an early age.
Last year we did not compete at all and our program grew as the season progressed. In previous years when we had weekly competition, practice participation dwindled esp. after winter break.
This season we have increased numbers and I am constantly getting inquries from parents. I wouldn't be surprised if we hit 60 kids and have to split practices.
Not sure what conclusions to draw but kids like wrestling.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio HS wrestling is down? Explain that to me
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on November 17, 2022
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IMO, there are so many facets to this question that it is really hard to know where to start AND where to stop.
Wrestling is damned hard, no doubt about it.
As an assigner for officials, I attend a lot of meetings with AD's and administrators and the thing I constantly hear being discussed is how different kids are today and how they have to be treated with "kid gloves". Not my position to say that this is right or wrong but I do wonder where this philosophy comes from and when the culture started to change?? I really don't have a clue.
To Hank's point, I have a feeling that competition is introduced FAR too soon. 6 and 8 year olds do not need to travel to Tulsa (or anywhere) to win a "National" championship. Ten years later, no one will even remember it.
On top of that, what I see is a LOT of fathers who are way over the top involved. This does not make for a fun experience and the drop out rate (in all sports) is simply incredible. I see tons of kids in youth programs and yet by HS, there are very few teams with a full line up. A HS dual meet with 14 matches is very rare. What happened to all those kids?
Does wrestling really need to be year round? Just asking, I don't have the answer.
Following that, I sometimes wonder if all the youth wrestling really helps the sport, as a whole, in the long run? When I was in school, a LONG time ago, you could go out for the wrestling team in 9th grade, work hard, and make a place for yourself. Today kids see a classmate who started wrestling at 8 years old and figure that they can't beat him so why bother trying.
Over the years I have spent on the mat, what I see is a little alarming. The kids at the top are VERY good, IMO better than they have ever been. However, I do not see any depth. I suspect this is partly due to not being able to fill a roster. With no competition in the room at many weights, lots of guys getting the starting position as they are the only warm body at that weight.
Why is is better in Pennsylvania? People are people so I can't imagine it is based on where they live. However, something in the culture makes the Pa kids damned good.
I wish I had the answer.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio HS wrestling is down? Explain that to me
Ben Golden added to this discussion on November 17, 2022
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Yeah, culture plays a factor. I think the amount of high-level coaching is the biggest thing. Where there are great systems of developing talent, you see a lot of good results and you see cultures flourish.
Look at the way the Askrens have drastically elevated the culture in Wisconsin. It looks like David Taylor is building something great in central PA--of course PA was already strong but him starting as a young, high level coach will help extend that into another generation. I won't be surprised to see that club become like Young Guns if/as he continues.
10-15 years ago, Ohio had Graham, St. Ed and BTW pumping out elite talent. I think the biggest change from then to now is the coaches that have retired or shifted their coaching focus somewhat.
Now, in central Ohio, Collin Palmer has emerged from the next generation, and we've seen great things happening out of his club. Olentangy has been a good environment for a while now. Ross Thatcher's Crazy Goats seem to be doing well, too.
I was encouraged when Logan Stieber opened up his club, but it appears they have shuttered since he took on a more firm position on OSU's staff. I'd like to see more college All Americans go into coaching. However, I understand it's difficult: I certainly wasn't anywhere close to being a college AA, but when I got out of college, I was interested in helping out on a local high school coaching staff. I quickly realized that my working hours made that very difficult, since most school practices start at around 3 pm. So there are barriers to helping out with coaching if you have a 9-5. I'm sure those barriers have always been around, and I have a ton of respect for the folks who don't let that stop them from staying involved.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio HS wrestling is down? Explain that to me
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on November 17, 2022
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Quote from Michael Rodriguez's post:
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"Bob...Do you think the downward trend will continue or do you think the upcoming investments by Intel and Honda will cause population growth in more blue collar families?
Also, do you see the emergence of the clubs as a possible equivalent to the old CYO and YMCA set up?"
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Mike, as youve noted--and ironically i posted about 2 months ago on possible effects of huge forthcoming economic developments in Central Ohio--esp Intel and Honda too.
i think decline may have bottomed out... ive got the states ranked... the top 5, PA, Illinois, and then Ohio, NJ and Iowa fighting for #3. But Ohio was a strong #2 some 20 years ago. (i use alot of criteria. College AA's & NCAA Quals, and Fargo incl)
and yes Clubs do offset losses in YMCA and CYO but culture and economics are factors hard to overcome. ....However there will be a power SHIFT from Cleveland/Akron area to C. Ohio. Will that restore Ohio? too soon to say. ...Will the sons of computer Geeks show the same toughness and gusto as sons of steelworkers, auto, manufacturing & tradesmen??
Jarod and Ben mentioned "many top wrestlers that st Eds and SPG (and whoever is BTW) have produced". Yes they have but i like how its done in PA, often their top wrestlers come from smaller towns. Look at PA state finals, rarely one school esp in AAA has even 2 champs, 3 virtually NEVER.---
i admire Eds & SPG programs, and for a while WalshJ, the glory they brought to Ohio but the PA way seems --as far as the state goes-- overall healthier and more sustainable.
Mike, i believe you wrestled in Akron area & were top 3 in your wt at state, what club or youth program did u come up in? the Dies' Ohio Youth maybe?
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Discussion Topic: Ohio HS wrestling is down? Explain that to me
Jeff Streu added to this discussion on November 17, 2022
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Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
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"We run a little youth wrestling program at Shaker and what I've noticed is interesting. The young kids we attract enjoy practice. They like being taught skills and lots of rigorous physical activity. Most, however, are not crazy about competition esp. at an early age.
Last year we did not compete at all and our program grew as the season progressed. In previous years when we had weekly competition, practice participation dwindled esp. after winter break.
This season we have increased numbers and I am constantly getting inquries from parents. I wouldn't be surprised if we hit 60 kids and have to split practices.
Not sure what conclusions to draw but kids like wrestling."
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Well said Hank. Kids like pure wrestling, just like they enjoy rough-housing and tussling in the living room or in the backyard. What most kids don't like is cutting weight, overzealous dads, or crazy year round practice and competition schedules.
It's great to hear how much your program's numbers have increased. I didn't grow up in Ohio, but my first two years of high school we had around 70 guys on our team, filling varsity, JV1, JV2, and freshmen lineups. That coach retired halfway through my high school career after many years great years of teaching and coaching. After he stepped down the program was never the same again and their numbers have declined - I highly doubt they fill more than two lineups now.
That coach was tough and "old school," but he loved the sport and cared a lot about his student-athletes. While the shift may be partially due to his departure, I've heard some teachers and coaches theorize that it is due to changing culture and demographics in the school district, kids having too much technology, etc.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio HS wrestling is down? Explain that to me
Dan Strope added to this discussion on November 18, 2022
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[/quote]
Jarod and Ben mentioned "many top wrestlers that st Eds and SPG (and whoever is BTW) have produced". Yes they have but i like how its done in PA, often their top wrestlers come from smaller towns. Look at PA state finals, rarely one school esp in AAA has even 2 champs, 3 virtually NEVER.---
i admire Eds & SPG programs, and for a while WalshJ, the glory they brought to Ohio but the PA way seems --as far as the state goes-- overall healthier and more sustainable.
[/quote]
There are some interesting points in this thread but Bob's points really stand out. The overall culture in PA is just more conducive to a healthier sport. Here are some of the reasons that I feel make the difference between the two and none of them involve any of the kids being different.
The following points are on general overall terms and can be countered by individual or specific examples but for the most part ring true.
1) OHSAA vs PIAA. Both organizations have the same goals - student athlete safety and creating a level playing field. The PIAA is often criticized for their hardline enforcement approach but it is no accident that every dot on the PA map can reference some sort of historical individual or team success. Tradition is a very powerful tool in sustaining the sport's strength and DEPTH. Not so much in Ohio as OHSAA rarely puts any bite into enforcement so the "pockets of success" seem to have sprouted in concentrated programs hurting overall depth. The PIAA actually made Zane Rutherford ineligible for a year. Zane Rutherford!
2) Coaching. Again the models are different. It seems PA high school coaches are more involved in the off season development of their community kids. Sure some of the elite PA kids go to Young Guns, M2, etc...in the offseason but there are a ton of PA high school coaches that are either working those clubs or coaching up their own team in the offseason. At least in Central Ohio the offseason (and in season in a lot of cases) method of closing the gap involves going to Miron's, Crazy Goats, Palmers, etc...I just haven't witnessed a whole lot of committed overall offseason coaching... Unlock the door and roll down the mats invite everybody in for a one day a week "open mat". Again, no offense to any specific coach just an overall observation.
3). Officiating. Two different worlds. I won't even label them...One eats the whistle, just scores the match, gives ample time to work on top and bottom and feels that a stalling call should never be given based on score. The other, loves to be heavily involved in the match, stalling calls are heavily influenced by the current score of the match and prefers influencing the match to be decided from the neutral position. I know every ref reading this part will scoff and every coach reading it will secretly agree. It is mind boggling to me hearing the coaching instruction from the corner of some of the matches. Instead of coaching their wrestler on how to improve his scoring position or how to take his opponent out of position the coaches are working the official for the stall call that they often get. Educate your wrestlers and quit relying on the stalling point in tight matches you are hurting your kid's development.
And to just make a counter point to the 'kids' aren't as tough argument. Every weekend during the season I ask all the coaches how their overall program is doing? Almost to a man they say the same thing- "We have a couple tough kids and we are young but we are excited because our youth program has (fill in any number over 45 here) out this year. I then ask them how many of those youth wrestlers are in grades 3 and under? The answer is always in the 75% or higher range. It is mind boggling how consistent the answer to that question is. A very small percentage of the kids that give the sport a try at a young age actually enter the junior high still wrestling. So the kids are coming out and trying the sport at a young age but something in the culture or developmental process is not appealing.
Again, these are all just general observations that explain the difference in culture and development in my opinion. There are certainly great coaches and officials in both states.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio HS wrestling is down? Explain that to me
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on November 18, 2022
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I appreciate all the input, questions, perspectives, etc.. Thank you for posting.
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