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Discussion Topic: Coaching fumbles at 2022 NCAAs
Rex Holman added to this discussion on March 20, 2022
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I realize that it is way easier to critique rather than do.
However, some things need to be addressed because there is very little to no excuse for them.
I'm starting a thread because it is therapeutic for me.
I hear kids say trust in the coaches. Trust in the process.
What if that is not such a good idea?
I only watched part of the Championships, so I am only aware of what I saw. That being said there is a lot to discuss.
Wrestling is about preparation. Rules and criteria are important as well. Knowing how to wrestle given the situation is muy importante.
Lewis v Starrocci-One of the easiest things to do to prepare your wrestler for overtime is to choreograph a top ride sequence. Chances are that two highly conditioned evenly matched individuals may end up being decided by the slimmest of margins. History repeated itself. I know that Mekhi Lewis had a longer than 6 second ride in him if he was adequately prepared. Did he trust his coaches to prepare him? Probably. Did he even know the criteria? Probably not.
Mason Parris v Cohlton Schultz-So, you have a lead in the third period against a dude with huge hips that eventually tested Gable Steveson. Do you shoot straight underneath him when you are 3rd period fatigued? No. You grab a wrist hold your ground and let him come to you; preparing to reshot. That's how you win. If you want to lose, You shoot directly into and underneath him.
I feel much better. ;)
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Last edited by Rex Holman on March 20, 2022; edited 1 time in total
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Discussion Topic: Coaching fumbles at 2022 NCAAs
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on March 20, 2022
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Well, Rex, while we're on that topic, let's discuss Ethan Smith against Plott. If you have what amounts to a 2 point lead with 20 seconds to go, you absolutely have to have an aggressive stall plan in mind. Even if fatigued, you have to have some course of action you've rehearsed--even if it's running backwards--that will make it difficult for your opponent to score. Underhook and a wrist? Or just drop in on a leg and hold on for dear life?
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Discussion Topic: Coaching fumbles at 2022 NCAAs
Drew Taylor added to this discussion on March 20, 2022
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Hank, try a three point lead. Plott had 53 seconds of riding time and after the takedown was able to nudge it to over a minute and extend the match to OT. Just a maddening sequence for Smith and the Bucks.
Totally agree on grabbing the wrist. It’s the best defense against getting taken down.
Smith sometimes struggles to compete hard in the third period after coming out really fast to start. Maybe he needs to better ration his energy. I love watching him and am a huge fan. The Plott loss hurts.
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Discussion Topic: Coaching fumbles at 2022 NCAAs
Rex Holman added to this discussion on March 20, 2022
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Thank you, Hank and Drew; Let the healing begin.
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Discussion Topic: Coaching fumbles at 2022 NCAAs
Ethan Moore added to this discussion on March 20, 2022
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This is even further exacerbated when you consider how prepared Penn State is for every situation. You can tell it is coached, as many of their kids do the same thing.
I've often complained about the riding or sitting on the ankle while on top, which prevents movement. Their wrestlers all do that.
Yesterday in the Brooks and Dean finals matches I noticed that when Amine/Warner stood up, they would grab in the crotch around a single leg, and run the guy out of bounds. For whatever reason Amine and Warner could not free themselves from that.
My point: they seem well coached for every scenario.
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Discussion Topic: Coaching fumbles at 2022 NCAAs
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on March 20, 2022
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Myles Amine is on any list of the greatest wrestlers never to win an NCAA title. He's poised and always prepared. But when Brooks got that quick takedown and rode him into the ground, you could just see a bit of desperation sink in.
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Discussion Topic: Coaching fumbles at 2022 NCAAs
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on March 20, 2022
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Quote from Ethan Moore's post:
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"Yesterday in the Brooks and Dean finals matches I noticed that when Amine/Warner stood up, they would grab in the crotch around a single leg, and run the guy out of bounds. For whatever reason Amine and Warner could not free themselves from that.
My point: they seem well coached for every scenario."
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This is horrendous for the sport -- and incredibly intelligent on their part.
How this isn't stalling is really beyond me.
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Discussion Topic: Coaching fumbles at 2022 NCAAs
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on March 20, 2022
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Quote from Brady Hiatt's post:
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"
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Quote from Ethan Moore's post:
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"Yesterday in the Brooks and Dean finals matches I noticed that when Amine/Warner stood up, they would grab in the crotch around a single leg, and run the guy out of bounds. For whatever reason Amine and Warner could not free themselves from that.
My point: they seem well coached for every scenario."
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This is horrendous for the sport -- and incredibly intelligent on their part.
How this isn't stalling is really beyond me."
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As long as riding time is part of folkstyle, there will be strategies to hang on in the top position. PSU's best wrestlers are masters of these situations. Officials rarely challenge their strategies.
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Discussion Topic: Coaching fumbles at 2022 NCAAs
John Flanigan added to this discussion on March 21, 2022
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Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
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Quote from Brady Hiatt's post:
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Quote from Ethan Moore's post:
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"Yesterday in the Brooks and Dean finals matches I noticed that when Amine/Warner stood up, they would grab in the crotch around a single leg, and run the guy out of bounds. For whatever reason Amine and Warner could not free themselves from that.
My point: they seem well coached for every scenario."
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This is horrendous for the sport -- and incredibly intelligent on their part.
How this isn't stalling is really beyond me."
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As long as riding time is part of folkstyle, there will be strategies to hang on in the top position. PSU's best wrestlers are masters of these situations. Officials rarely challenge their strategies."
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Watching Warner on top with his constant push outs and not get dinged is painful.
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Discussion Topic: Coaching fumbles at 2022 NCAAs
Jim Kessen added to this discussion on March 21, 2022
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Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
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Quote from Brady Hiatt's post:
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Quote from Ethan Moore's post:
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"Yesterday in the Brooks and Dean finals matches I noticed that when Amine/Warner stood up, they would grab in the crotch around a single leg, and run the guy out of bounds. For whatever reason Amine and Warner could not free themselves from that.
My point: they seem well coached for every scenario."
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This is horrendous for the sport -- and incredibly intelligent on their part.
How this isn't stalling is really beyond me."
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As long as riding time is part of folkstyle, there will be strategies to hang on in the top position. PSU's best wrestlers are masters of these situations. Officials rarely challenge their strategies."
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Agree and I wish they would look into changing the rule. I’m ok if they keep track of riding time but it’s only awarded at the end of match if the guy scored a TD, R or NF. Watching a guy try nothing from the top position is so boring. Something should change to make it more exciting but I doubt it will.
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Discussion Topic: Coaching fumbles at 2022 NCAAs
Jim Kessen added to this discussion on March 21, 2022
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Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
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"
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Quote from Brady Hiatt's post:
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"
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Quote from Ethan Moore's post:
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"Yesterday in the Brooks and Dean finals matches I noticed that when Amine/Warner stood up, they would grab in the crotch around a single leg, and run the guy out of bounds. For whatever reason Amine and Warner could not free themselves from that.
My point: they seem well coached for every scenario."
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This is horrendous for the sport -- and incredibly intelligent on their part.
How this isn't stalling is really beyond me."
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As long as riding time is part of folkstyle, there will be strategies to hang on in the top position. PSU's best wrestlers are masters of these situations. Officials rarely challenge their strategies."
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Agree and I wish they would look into changing the rule. I’m ok if they keep track of riding time but it’s only awarded at the end of match if the guy scored a TD, R or NF. Watching a guy try nothing from the top position is so boring. Something should change to make it more exciting but I doubt it will.
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Discussion Topic: Coaching fumbles at 2022 NCAAs
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on March 21, 2022
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Honestly, the best way to solve the problem of bottom unable to escape but constantly getting to his feet is to get rid of riding time. This would free up officials to call stalling on top man if he's constantly shoving his opponent out of bounds or clinging to standing control. What we currently have going on is archaic.
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Discussion Topic: Coaching fumbles at 2022 NCAAs
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on March 21, 2022
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Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
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"Honestly, the best way to solve the problem of bottom unable to escape but constantly getting to his feet is to get rid of riding time. This would free up officials to call stalling on top man if he's constantly shoving his opponent out of bounds or clinging to standing control. What we currently have going on is archaic."
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Let me start with saying that, IMO, riding time needs to go away.
With rare exceptions, the NCAA officials do not call stalling unless the criteria are spelled out for them. The drop down, the side headlock, and backing OOB's are all examples of the standard being set and they just have to apply it.
Additionally they will bang the bottom man when Spencer Lee or the Bull is on their back (and NO one wants to be in that position) but the top man is just camping on an ankle or has the leg trapped against the butt. Tell me, what can the bottom man possibly do?
However, they are loath to hit the top man for stalling because the coach won't like it.
Stalling is always a judgement, it is just the way it is. That said, and as long as there is riding time, why can't the top man be penalized for stalling when pushing the bottom man OOB's?? He would still be on top but he now has a warning or point against him. I just don't see why they have to be exclusionary. I feel pretty confident that an impending call would change his course of action. Wrestlers ALWAYS adapt to rules changes.
Just my $.02.
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Discussion Topic: Coaching fumbles at 2022 NCAAs
Freddy Carr added to this discussion on March 21, 2022
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Going off memory here but first round for Ethan Smith vs Stanford. Ethan gets in trouble in the 3rd, gives up backs and is down 10-6 with about 1:30 left.
Ethan gets THREE takedowns rather easily in a span of about 45 seconds to tie the match at 12-12 with 45 seconds to go. Everyone I watched with was screaming “take him down again!” but instead OSU elects to try to ride for 45 seconds. Stanford gets the escape with 5 seconds left to win. IMHO that’s a fumble.
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Discussion Topic: Coaching fumbles at 2022 NCAAs
Drew Taylor added to this discussion on March 21, 2022
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I haven't fully fleshed this out in my mind, so I might not even agree with what I'm about to say. But what about eliminating the initial warning for stalling and jumping straight to awarding one point?
Too often officials wait until the final 15 seconds to give an obligatory stall warning as the wrestler in the lead backpedals and avoids contact. It's meaningless. The fear of giving up a point would discourage such behavior.
I might be in the minority, but I appreciate riding time and the strategies it can bring to a match. A good ride can be a thing of beauty and adds suspense as the clock ticks toward one minute. Some like to bag on Penn State wrestlers for accumulating riding time by hooking the ankle, but there's no denying how hard they are working to stay on top. There is constant movement to cover the movement of their opponent. Cross wrist rides. Mat returns. Running the opponent out of bounds. If it was easy, every team would do it. It's artful.
Lastly, I'll say way too much is made of stalling. It has become the mating call of Iowa fans. Most officials are very careful to not let stalling points dictate the outcome of a match, which is appropriate. Let action and not inaction dictate the outcome. So I guess I just contradicted my earlier point. I'll shut up.
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