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Discussion Topic: 4 stall calls in 35 seconds
Jim Kessen added to this discussion on March 14, 2022
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Did anyone see this match? Kid from Graham was up 3-0 and got hit for his 4th stall call circling away from opponent and about to celebrate winning when hit again to cost him the match?
I think ref thought he was sending it into OT not realizing it was 2 pt penalty.
Kid from Graham handled it with class but that was bad officiating
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Discussion Topic: 4 stall calls in 35 seconds
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on March 14, 2022
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It was 3 calls … 100% agree.
Winning a stye title when actually scoring 0 points shouldn’t be a thing.
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Discussion Topic: 4 stall calls in 35 seconds
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on March 14, 2022
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I was watching the match as it happened and I agree with every one of the stalling calls. Actually, IMO, there were several other occasions where he could have been called and was not.
The final call was made with less than 3 seconds on the clock and the offending wrestler had his track shoes on. In no way was he circling away from the opponent, he was backing faster than anyone I have EVER seen. Celebrating is for AFTER you win, not while the match is still going on.
This was a one point match and all he had to do was to hold center. He didn't have to try anything offensive to put himself in jeopardy but with a 1 pint lead, you simply can not afford to run.
Nope, this is completely on the contestant. The official just calls what he sees.
BTW, there is not one single official who wants his state finals match to go this way. However, to not call the match properly and per the rules is doing the other wrestler wrong.
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Discussion Topic: 4 stall calls in 35 seconds
Ethan Moore added to this discussion on March 14, 2022
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Jim - come on. Can't call stalling 3 times in 30 seconds. You can't.
On a restart with 3 seconds left and up 1, you supposed to take a shot?
Remind me - are you an official?
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Discussion Topic: 4 stall calls in 35 seconds
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on March 14, 2022
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Quote from Jim Behrens's post:
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"I was watching the match as it happened and I agree with every one of the stalling calls. Actually, IMO, there were several other occasions where he could have been called and was not.
The final call was made with less than 3 seconds on the clock and the offending wrestler had his track shoes on. In no way was he circling away from the opponent, he was backing faster than anyone I have EVER seen. Celebrating is for AFTER you win, not while the match is still going on.
This was a one point match and all he had to do was to hold center. He didn't have to try anything offensive to put himself in jeopardy but with a 1 pint lead, you simply can not afford to run.
Nope, this is completely on the contestant. The official just calls what he sees.
BTW, there is not one single official who wants his state finals match to go this way. However, to not call the match properly and per the rules is doing the other wrestler wrong."
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We will disagree here Jim. The Official didn’t call what he saw. He didn’t call the stalling with 3 seconds left. He didn’t make the call until AFTER the asst official injected himself into the call. They discussed it and made the call about 10 seconds after the match was over.
Not good.
And it was a circle — and expanding circle, but still a circle.
In this match, the other wrestler - who is fantastic — wasn’t able to score in any position. That shouldn’t win.
We do agree that he should have stood center of the mat the last three seconds.
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Discussion Topic: 4 stall calls in 35 seconds
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on March 14, 2022
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Quote from Ethan Moore's post:
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"Jim - come on. Can't call stalling 3 times in 30 seconds. You can't.
On a restart with 3 seconds left and up 1, you supposed to take a shot?
Remind me - are you an official?"
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Did you see the match? Especially the end of the match?
If not, watch it and tell me that there should not have been a call.
No where did I say or imply that he should have taken a shot.
He was backing and blocking all over the mat. I am 100% certain that if it was your wrestler doing the chasing, you would have felt the call was deserved.
Heck, even Brady (who dislikes officials intently) agreed that the kid screwed up and should have stood center. In 40 years on the mat (yes, I am an official), I never saw anyone move backward like this.
Guys, I understand that you don't like the call. We don't like having to make it but to not make it cheats the other wrestler.
To not decide is to decide.
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Discussion Topic: 4 stall calls in 35 seconds
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on March 14, 2022
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.[/quote]
We will disagree here Jim. The Official didn’t call what he saw. He didn’t call the stalling with 3 seconds left. He didn’t make the call until AFTER the asst official injected himself into the call. They discussed it and made the call about 10 seconds after the match was over.
Not good.
And it was a circle — and expanding circle, but still a circle.
In this match, the other wrestler - who is fantastic — wasn’t able to score in any position. That shouldn’t win.
We do agree that he should have stood center of the mat the last three seconds.[/quote]
I agree with you completely that the officials did not handle it well. No question about that. No one wants their match to go that way.
You can call it a circle but he was going backward, not even side to side.
The purpose of the ass't official is to observe and offer their perspective on what happens. The lead official can take their advice or ignore it, his choice. In this case, IMO, the stall call was 100% the correct call. It just happened to be the two point one. I can not remember the last time I got to that pint in the progression chart, it is that rare.
Obviously many will disagree but I am explaining from the perspective I have.
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Discussion Topic: 4 stall calls in 35 seconds
Jeff Streu added to this discussion on March 14, 2022
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I watched the match and I pretty much agree that it was stalling, but to not call the last one until after the match is over and to do it with hesitation was a mistake on the official's part. Winning a match with zero technical points is ugly, but he won within the rules.
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Discussion Topic: 4 stall calls in 35 seconds
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on March 14, 2022
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Quote from Jim Behrens's post:
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"[Heck, even Brady (who dislikes officials intently) agreed that the kid screwed up and should have stood center."
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LOL. — I intently like inconsistent officiating. Ohio is notorious for this. Stalling is absolutely called differently in the final period and even more so in the final 30 seconds than at any point in the match. It is called far differently vs the guy winning than the guy losing. To argue differently is rubbish. THIS is what I have a problem with.
I discussed this match with an a couple multi year state officials and a college official and they said two of the three should have called. I can’t argue that.
When officials handle a match in such a manner — they will take heat. And a lot of it. Head official not calling it in real time — not calling what he saw. Then calling it only after side official walks by and comments to him — then it’s called after time expires is beyond bad — and they (seemingly) thought it was to tie the match because he awarded 1 point. Not sure how you can interpret it otherwise. That just seems bad.
Not sure how you haven’t seen a guy use an expanding circle with mere seconds left on the clock. It happens in dang near every big tournament. It’ll happen at least 20 times in Detroit this weekend.
Ask any official that knows me. I give 95% of officials 0 guff. I give 4% very very little . They have a very difficult job. 1% get the full treatment.
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Last edited by Brady Hiatt on March 14, 2022; edited 1 time in total
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Discussion Topic: 4 stall calls in 35 seconds
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on March 14, 2022
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Quote from Jeff Streu's post:
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"I watched the match and I pretty much agree that it was stalling, but to not call the last one until after the match is over and to do it with hesitation was a mistake on the official's part. Winning a match with zero technical points is ugly, but he won within the rules."
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UGLY indeed.
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Discussion Topic: 4 stall calls in 35 seconds
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on March 14, 2022
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Discussion Topic: 4 stall calls in 35 seconds
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on March 14, 2022
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Quote from Brady Hiatt's post:
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"https://twitter.com/_zmattin02_/status/1503410944843689994?s=21
Jim, take a look at this call. Perfect example of how stalling is called differently (and IMHO very poorly in this instance) at the end of a match."
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I assume that the call was on green?
How do we know it was called "differently"? Was it called earlier at all? Just asking as I have no idea.
Let me ask what green did? He backed up, dove the ankle, and was not going to let go for anything. If you have a call to burn, go for it. If you don't, that is poor strategy.
IYO, should there have been no call? Based on what?
Stalling should be called at any time it is recognized. The time, the period, the score, the wrestler should not matter at all. I understand that you might not (and probably don't) believe that but it is NOT a call we want to make.
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Discussion Topic: 4 stall calls in 35 seconds
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on March 14, 2022
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Quote from Brady Hiatt's post:
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"
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Quote from Jim Behrens's post:
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"[Heck, even Brady (who dislikes officials intently) agreed that the kid screwed up and should have stood center."
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LOL. — I intently like inconsistent officiating. Ohio is notorious for this. Stalling is absolutely called differently in the final period and even more so in the final 30 seconds than at any point in the match. It is called far differently vs the guy winning than the guy losing. To argue differently is rubbish. THIS is what I have a problem with.
I discussed this match with an a couple multi year state officials and a college official and they said two of the three should have called. I can’t argue that.
When officials handle a match in such a manner — they will take heat. And a lot of it. Head official not calling it in real time — not calling what he saw. Then calling it only after side official walks by and comments to him — then it’s called after time expires is beyond bad — and they (seemingly) thought it was to tie the match because he awarded 1 point. Not sure how you can interpret it otherwise. That just seems bad.
Not sure how you haven’t seen a guy use an expanding circle with mere seconds left on the clock. It happens in dang near every big tournament. It’ll happen at least 20 times in Detroit this weekend.
Ask any official that knows me. I give 95% of officials 0 guff. I give 4% very very little . They have a very difficult job. 1% get the full treatment."
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I never did any sort of study as to when, or why, stalling calls are made more frequently but it might have a lot to do with the fact that it is occurring more in the third period. One wrestler is trying to camp on a lead or maybe gassing out. That is not happening in the first period. Might explain why you see what you see.
I never said the the way this was handled wasn't bad. Mechanics wise, I agree.
I would never use what happens in Detroit this week as any sort of example. NCAA officials seem to swallow their whistles on stalling. They can call it on a drop down, side headlock, or backing OOB's but call it on the top man?? Doesn't happen. Instead they call it on some poor schmuck under Spencer Lee who would love to be anywhere else. I invite you to count the number of times it gets called on a top man when you think he is stalling. It won't be many.
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Discussion Topic: 4 stall calls in 35 seconds
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on March 14, 2022
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Quote from Jim Behrens's post:
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"
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Quote from Brady Hiatt's post:
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"https://twitter.com/_zmattin02_/status/1503410944843689994?s=21
Jim, take a look at this call. Perfect example of how stalling is called differently (and IMHO very poorly in this instance) at the end of a match."
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I assume that the call was on green?
How do we know it was called "differently"? Was it called earlier at all? Just asking as I have no idea.
Let me ask what green did? He backed up, dove the ankle, and was not going to let go for anything. If you have a call to burn, go for it. If you don't, that is poor strategy.
IYO, should there have been no call? Based on what?
Stalling should be called at any time it is recognized. The time, the period, the score, the wrestler should not matter at all. I understand that you might not (and probably don't) believe that but it is NOT a call we want to make."
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It may not be a call YOU want to make.
How is this called differently?? Really?? When is last time you have seen a stall call on a guy who shoots in and holds on without moving up was not letting go for anything in the 1st or 2nd period. Yeah, me neither. Is it impossible for you to say, yeah, that’s a bad call.
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Discussion Topic: 4 stall calls in 35 seconds
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on March 14, 2022
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[quote="Jim Behrens"]
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Quote from Brady Hiatt's post:
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"I never did any sort of study as to when, or why, stalling calls are made more frequently but it might have a lot to do with the fact that it is occurring more in the third period. One wrestler is trying to camp on a lead or maybe gassing out. That is not happening in the first period. Might explain why you see what you see.
I never said the the way this was handled wasn't bad. Mechanics wise, I agree.
I would never use what happens in Detroit this week as any sort of example. NCAA officials seem to swallow their whistles on stalling. They can call it on a drop down, side headlock, or backing OOB's but call it on the top man?? Doesn't happen. Instead they call it on some poor schmuck under Spencer Lee who would love to be anywhere else. I invite you to count the number of times it gets called on a top man when you think he is stalling. It won't be many."
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LOL on Spencer Lee comment. Or when guy has double boots in, is arching bottom man’s hips off mat and ties up wrists — and bottom is stalling.
College riding — when you get a point for well, riding, is a little different. Under those rules, I don’t think it should be called if you have less than a minute of RT.
Third period is called different. Backing occurs often in 1st two periods and backer isn’t called as often or as quickly as in the third. Same action, different call. Your words said what I believe is the reason, it’s in officials mind they are “trying to camp on a lead” as opposed to a guy backing trying to keep score low in 1st two periods.
I’d honestly enjoy sitting at a state tournament and watching matches and discussing this. I believe it would be beneficial to hear an officials thoughts on all matches. I have reached out to many I know to comment on these two matches. Perspectives have varied — but helps me to know the mind of an official better.
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