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Discussion Topic: is this still true ?
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on July 15, 2020
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Justin...I've always respected true believers, envied them really.
See Mr. Preusse...race AND religion discussed and things remain civil.
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Discussion Topic: is this still true ?
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on July 17, 2020
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Quote from Michael Rodriguez's post:
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"Brady...So sorry for your loss.
Justin...One good days I'm agnostic and on bad days I'm atheist and I still find a lot of truth in your first post."
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Thanks Michael.
...and on a day that's just you're just average, I'd love to talk with you about the beauty of Christ and what He's done for me.
And yes, this forum is special because we can and do discuss topics mere mortals (ha ha) shy away from and do so civilly.
I read an article talking about society in general that said, "A culture of honor creates the context for powerful people to show up to a respectful conversation and pursue connection, listen well, and meet one another’s needs regardless of agreement." I think we, for the most part, do this well on here.
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Discussion Topic: is this still true ?
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on July 27, 2020
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Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
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""We know that we cannot live together without rules which tell us what is right and what is wrong, what is permitted and what is prohibited. We know that it is law which enables men to live together, that creates order out of chaos. We know that law is the glue that holds civilization together."
Robert Kennedy
assassinated 52 years ago this month. Would have become president and changed America, imo"
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The answer is that, yes, it is still true. Incontrovertible.
However it is the obligation of good people to change bad laws.
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Discussion Topic: is this still true ?
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on July 28, 2020
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Mr Preusse...Doesn't the United States have more incarcerated people per capita then any other country in the world? It would seem to me that the people who follow the laws of society would likely live similar lives even if laws didn't exist and the people who break the law don't really care that they're breaking it. The shear number of people who break existing laws shows how ineffective they are.
Like my original post, I can't think of a law I follow because it's a "law". I didn't hit my neighbor yesterday morning for mowing his lawn at 7:3 in the morning. I chose not to walk over and punch him in the face because it was a bad idea, a bad example for my child and (who knows) maybe he would've beat my ass? The law never entered my mind.
And your final point about the obligation of good people? It would seem we must not have many good people, because our country is overflowing with unjust laws and unjust aplication of those laws.
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Discussion Topic: is this still true ?
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on July 28, 2020
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Michael: Curious laws do you consider unjust?
The few laws I follow solely because it’s “the law” are speed limits, building permits and licensing. You mean I need the permission of the city to build something on my own property? AND pay them for that permission!!! Grrrrrr
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Discussion Topic: is this still true ?
Roe Fox added to this discussion on July 28, 2020
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And your final point about the obligation of good people? It would seem we must not have many good people, because our country is overflowing with unjust laws and unjust aplication of those laws.
Michael: if we were “overflowing with unjust laws” there would be no country. Revolutions have a way of taking care of those kinds of things. It’s the greatest country in the world and survives many a flawed human being who run it, of either party, because the system of government, on balance, works.
A corollary to Bob’s point: in an orderly society all people should follow good laws.
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Discussion Topic: is this still true ?
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on July 28, 2020
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Quote from Michael Rodriguez's post:
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"Mr Preusse...Doesn't the United States have more incarcerated people per capita then any other country in the world? The shear number of people who break existing laws shows how ineffective they are.
And your final point about the obligation of good people? It would seem we must not have many good people, because our country is overflowing with unjust laws and unjust aplication of those laws."
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Michael,
"overflowing with unjust laws"?? u may be correct- however i think we would have to go law by law to debate the justice & intention of each law. Blanket statements r easy to make, impossible to refute.
i am sure innocent people are incarcerated, i hate this, utterly despise it. i don't know if we have "the most incarcerated" however maybe we need more?
I've been on 3 Common Pleas juries, in each case we did Not convict a person who was probably guilty simply because its tough to get 12 people to agree. The justice system leans towards protecting people, some of whom are guilty.
Has the justice system been applied more harshly to certain groups, more favorably to the rich & powerful.Yes i'm sure many of us on here believe and abhor that.
i believe we have many "good people", flawed but "good", we need more. What we really are in short supply of are Leaders.
“A leader takes people where they want to go. A great leader takes people where they don’t necessarily want to go but ought to be.”— Rosalynn Carter, former First Lady
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Discussion Topic: is this still true ?
Rick Wasmer added to this discussion on July 28, 2020
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As the statistic above illustrates, the United States has one of the highest rates of incarceration in the world. With 655 inmates per 100,000 of population, the U.S. is by far the leader among large industrialized nations in incarceration.Jun 16, 2020
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Discussion Topic: is this still true ?
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on July 29, 2020
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This is a touchy subject, perhaps more touchy than race or religion (likely because they're all intertwined). People's perceptions on the topic are shaped by their upbringing and their life experience.
I love America. My parents came here in their early teens and this country allowed my dad the opportunity to get an education and go from a Cuban immigrant with just the clothes on his back to a Vice President of a fortune 500 company. He was able to provide for his family and give us a life he could have never dreamed of in Cuba. The freedoms and opportunities that America provides are plentiful.
But access to the American Dream isn't equal for all. Laws aren't applied equally, the way we fund education is criminal and many communities face real issues with obstacles to voting (the basis for everything). I'm not going to argue the point that America has a history (and a present and future) of institutional racism and sexism. If that is not your reality, then nothing I say here is going to convince you. America is a great nation. Is it the "greatest" nation? I don't know? It's certainly a work in progress and progress is far too slow for my taste.
Other people have said it better than me:
"The United States is a contradiction. Its founding principles embrace the ideals of freedom and equality, but it is a nation built on the systematic exclusion and suppression of communities of color. From the start, so many of this country’s laws and public policies, which should serve as the scaffolding that guides progress, were instead designed explicitly to prevent people of color from fully participating. Moreover, these legal constructs are not some relic of antebellum or Jim Crow past but rather remain part of the fabric of American policymaking."
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Discussion Topic: is this still true ?
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on July 29, 2020
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Quote from Rick Wasmer's post:
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"As the statistic above illustrates, the United States has one of the highest rates of incarceration in the world. With 655 inmates per 100,000 of population, the U.S. is by far the leader among large industrialized nations in incarceration.Jun 16, 2020"
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Rick, 655 per 100k not outrageous imo, thats ok by me IF justifiable --- even more.
have u noticed unbridled criminal activity in the streets lately with usually very few arrests? i have. In housing collapse of 2008 did any mortgage, bank, brokerage firm executives go to trial for schemes to defraud (and this was under previous admin btw)? NO.
we ALL despise any innocent person imprisoned or unjustifiably sentenced, no debate there.
let's face it totalitarian countries -of which there are many- wont give u actual stats-- secret police, gulags, concentration camps, outright murder. Russia, China, who knows ?
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Discussion Topic: is this still true ?
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on July 29, 2020
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Mike, i wont spar with you on generalities & ideology. let's nix all the ideology talk, and cut right to the chase which is where people disagree with each other. The Details.
Give us the specific details of a problem and a solution. And what do YOU propose to solve problems u see? .....i'm up for hearing fair workable realistic proposals.
[quote="Michael Rodriguez"].... and many communities face real issues with obstacles to voting (the basis for everything). ---Mike, name them specifically, obstacles to voting?? Maybe i'm unaware?
"I'm not going to argue the point that America has a history (and a present and future) of institutional racism and sexism." ----Mike, we know our past. Give us specific examples of current & present "Institutional racism and sexism". Not individual but current as u call it, "Institutional"? i can always learn something i may not know.
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Discussion Topic: is this still true ?
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on July 29, 2020
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As I said Bob, I’m not argue with you. If you don’t think there is institutional racism in this country no example I’m going to give you is going to change your mind. If you don’t think voter suppression is a real thing in minority communities, there’s nothing I can do to make you see it. You’ve already decided we can’t talk In generalities and I guarantee any specific I give you will be explained away because of the nuances of that particular situation.
As far as my plans to personally end racism I’m America, I don’t have any. If I knew the answer to that question, I’d surely share it. Smarter people than me been working on that for a very long time and, I’m my opinion, they have all failed. Now, clearly, I live in a very different world than you do, and that’s ok. We’re free in this great country to think what we want and say what we want. I respectfully disagree with you.
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Discussion Topic: is this still true ?
Mike Stann added to this discussion on July 29, 2020
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Bob, systematic racism happens when systems and institutions produce racially disparate outcomes, regardless of the people's intention who work within them. One need only look at a few of the myriad studies to see this is still happening in our country. In California a 2020 study showed that blacks where pulled over 2.5 times more per capita than white drivers and 3 times more likely to be searched even though studies show that searches of white drivers were more likely to turn up contraband. There are also recent studies showing that the disparity of black drivers being pulled over drops at night (harder to discern at night whose black). Hundreds of these type of studies.
Marijuana laws, 2020 study shows blacks are 3.5 times more likely to be arrested for marijuana offenses even though ample data shows that drug use is consistent among blacks and whites.
Death penalty, In Tennessee blacks make up 17% of the population and 44% of death row inmates. A 2016 study of Louisiana showed that black men who killed white women were 30 times more likely to get the death penalty than black men who killed black men.
Sentencing--a 2017 report by the U. S. Sentencing commission found that for the same crimes committed by blacks and whites, blacks got sentences that on average were 20% longer.
I could go on and on. I only cherry picked a few of thousands of studies over the last 20-30 years. I could have pointed to similar studies in school suspensions and solitary confinement and this is only in the area of criminal justice. This can be duplicated in the areas of education, higher learning, hiring etc.
I chose to talk about criminal justice as I was involved in the system for five years as and investigator and p.o. I got out because of the hostility I witnessed towards blacks, women and gay and went to run a library instead.. imho white America can no longer close its' eyes toward what has been happening in this country for my entire lifetime. It really is on us white folk of good intentions to make the change that is needed. God knows our African American brothers and sisters have tried. it's now our turn to step up. Sorry I'm 69 and tend to get on a soapbox sometimes.
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Discussion Topic: is this still true ?
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on July 29, 2020
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Mike R,
Just asking for specifics about a big statement u made, several big statements. I hear u saying --in so many words-- i know it, take my word for it, i just know it. Then u imply if i don't automatically accept it i'm hopeless.
well i'm use to rational discussion. In what Law School, Business, or Critical Thinking class is your kind of thinking just accepted as fact?
Institutional racism/sexism is a big charge. In any court of law you'd be asked for substantiated examples. Voting obstacles, i'd like to know where and how....I'm not saying it isn't true, enlighten me. Too much to ask?
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Discussion Topic: is this still true ?
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on July 29, 2020
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Mike Stann, u threw alot at me, lol.
u gave me your bio heres mine. im 77, with partial disability from the VA for my service connected injury in Vietnam, where i learned to get along with everyone- EVERYONE. i was an E4 enlisted man, i never had a problem whether dealing with black, Hispanic, hillbilly, Asian, Vietnamese.
but i don't automatically accept what i continually hear on CNN with no substantiation. Theres "opportunity" and theres "results", results are never guaranteed. (80% of NBA is black)
i get theres individual racism, sexism too - among ALL people- ALL -but INSTITUTIONAL racism/sexism is a big charge. Racism can include all groups.
And then theres this Voting obstacles thing. Just asking for detailed info, what every thinking person has a right to ask for..
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