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Discussion Topic: Olympic Thoughts
Jim Kessen added to this discussion on August 26, 2016
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I get that we want to be competitive on the international scene but out of the thousands of kids wrestling this year how many actually have dreams of being an olympic champ? My guess is that number is very very small so why eliminate a style for so few kids? Kids that have that dream can wrestle freestyle all year round if they want.
People complain about participation numbers now and I don't see freestyle only pulling in more kids.
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Discussion Topic: Olympic Thoughts
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on August 26, 2016
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Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
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"I understand our attachment to Folkstyle. It's ours. But if we want to be on the level of our counterparts in swimming, women's gymnastics and track, we need our best talent competing full time at a younger age in the Olympic styles. My opinion...but I'm right."
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John Smith disagrees with you. ...and he'd say he's right as well. And he wasn't a physical freak by anybody's definition.
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Discussion Topic: Olympic Thoughts
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on August 26, 2016
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Quote from Brady Hiatt's post:
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"
John Smith disagrees with you. ...and he'd say he's right as well. And he wasn't a physical freak by anybody's definition."
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I totally agree with the stance that we need to make the switch to freestyle (as much as I enjoy folk), but am I alone that I considered John Smith to be a "physical freak"? Obviously he didn't have the physical stature and muscle definition, but he had the kind of quickness, flexibility and balance that you can't teach...way outside the bell curve. To be honest, I don't think you can succeed at the world level without being a "physical freak".
Am I wrong on that?
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Discussion Topic: Olympic Thoughts
Rex Holman added to this discussion on August 26, 2016
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Regarding Snyder and Cox, Snyder spent a year at the OTC and has Rosselli as a personal coach, while Cox has Mike Eierman as a club coach since youth. Eierman was an AA for Nebraska but more importantly he was a resident at the OTC (during the same time as myself) and he is in to details. He was in to figuring out how things worked. It doesn't surprise me that he is Cox's personal coach and that Cox does everything right.
Talked to my friend and former wrestler, Chris Andrews from New Albany. He lost to Molinaro as sophomore in high school at duals in Maryland. A one point loss in which he scored a takedown. Same year Molinaro beat Burroughs in state finals. Chris is an outstanding technician and tactician but will admit not the same athlete.
Great perfomances are underwritten by great athleticism, great coaching and great students of the sport.
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Discussion Topic: Olympic Thoughts
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on August 26, 2016
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Brady: Do you honestly think we wouldn't be better as a nation in the Olympic styles if we competed at them full time?
To quote Tim Foley from his mailbag in today's InterMat:
"There doesn't need to be any wholesale change at the federation level, but I do think we all need to sit in a room and decide if we want to move college wrestling over to freestyle and Greco-Roman. Snyder and Cox didn't win at the international level because they wrestle folkstyle (that makes no sense) but it does say that the regimented schedule, constant training and Regional OTC's are a model that we should explore and expand."
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Discussion Topic: Olympic Thoughts
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on August 26, 2016
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veteran successful coaches i have talked to seem to think both styles COMPLEMENT each other, can co-exist. Its important to remember Youth & HS keep wrestling afloat in America.
may be of interest, from AWN several years ago:
Question: The high school kids rankings done by the major publications factor in the Olympic styles results, mainly Fargo. What skills from the Olympic styles help a kid transition to college?
Mike Powell is head coach at powerhouse Oak Park River Forest Illinois: “Hand fighting, dominate ties, position. Greco mat awareness- pushouts. High level, high pressure competition. The need to finish clean and immediately.â€
Randall “Biff†Jones assists with brothers head coach Shawn and Rodney on the Broken Arrow Oklahoma staff (Rodney 3x AA, NCAA runnerup 1999 for Oklahoma U): “We respect all three forms of wrestling but folkstyle is our focus. We feel like folkstyle is the more difficult form of amateur wrestling. Wrestling is wrestling and we feel like any experience is beneficial as long as you don’t create freestyle only techniques.â€
Troy Tirapelle coaches Buchanan California in the famed Central Valley. He tells me: “I think there are several skills that are transferrable to the college style, but the most important skill in my mind is the battle for position. Too many young wrestlers and coaches believe wrestling is about how many moves you know and how well you do them. However, when you get to the higher levels of the sport, everyone has certain things that they do well and each competitor is trying to put themselves into a position battle that they believe they will win more times than not (therefore increasing their chances of scoring points/winning). Wrestling at the highest level is comprised of efficiency and probability; how to better ones odds.â€
John Gramuglia has built Wadsworth Ohio into a contender in division I, in fact his team beat St. Edward to win the state title in 2010. He tells me: “I think freestyle wrestling is vital to the development of any wrestler who wants to win a state championship or be one of the weight class elites. The repetition of drills and live wrestling with freestyle techniques will teach proper body positioning for any style of wrestling. It also teaches total body control and shot finishing with control. You will learn how to score against the elite wrestlers with freestyle training.â€
Dave Crowell of Nazareth Pennsylvania coaches in the famed Lehigh Valley: “I'm not so sure it is a matter of specific skills as it is an improved ability to compete against high level kids and the better reaction time, counter-attacking ability and the increased ability to take advantage of mistakes or faults in positioning.â€
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Discussion Topic: Olympic Thoughts
Jeff Streu added to this discussion on August 26, 2016
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The question I'd like to pose to all of those against switching to freestyle/greco: what's your suggestion on how the US can become a international wrestling power? The US dominates so many sports at the Olympics and there's no reason why we can't dominate at wrestling. We are a country with far more resources than most, and no one out works us or shows up to the mat in better conditioning - yet we don't win the most.
In regards to keeping folkstyle or switching to FS/GR year round, I see both sides but I'm leaning slightly toward FS/GR. From a technique/tactic standpoint, it would make sense to FS/GR - our current system in the US would be comparable to having our gymnasts perform routines on slightly different apparatus for the first decade of their career. However, I do think that folkstyle helps our conditioning and toughness.
As much as I like the international style and I'd like the US to switch, we probably would lose the majority of a generation of wrestlers. Another point is the relative difficulty of some of the moves. It's much easier to teach a young kid a half nelson than it is to teach them a proper gut wrench.
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Discussion Topic: Olympic Thoughts
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on August 26, 2016
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Hank: we can speculate that we'd do better but we don't know. Other "data" may prove that it wouldn't make a difference. The USA uses that same rules as we do in the Olympics in almost EVERY OTHER sport and in which of those (outside of basketball = (which isn't the exact same rules) and maybe swimming) do we as a nation dominate? Soccer? Nope, team didn't even qualify. Volleyball? Nope. Diving? Badmitton? Tennis? Golf? Table Tennis? Fencing? Judo? Plenty of No's there.
My point is this, many of the best wrestlers we have say that folkstyle isn't a hinderance. They are more of an expert in this area than I am. Cox himself said he knew "next to nothing" about freestyle wrestling, but that he "knows how to wrestle". This is basically what Smith and others are saying.
Michael -- No, I don't believe John Smith was a physical freak. Is he better physically than most of us mortals. Yes. But compared with the guys he competed against. Nope. Many guys were quicker, stronger, etc. I've talked to a few guys that wrestled him. His physical attributes were never emphasized. His technique however was. It was off the charts. That's why he won. His physical abilities were very good, but I have never ever heard him described as a freak. I think he'd even say that.
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Discussion Topic: Olympic Thoughts
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on August 27, 2016
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Forgive me if this goes off on a tangent but I've been throwing a few back tonight...
I think you would struggle to find any wrestler that would say that about themselves. The very nature of the statement belittles what we value about our sport (although it shouldn't). Do you think Jordan Burroughs thinks he's a freak? Kyle Snyder? Cox? Nope. Did Kenny Monday? Tom Brands? Dave Schultz? Kendall Cross? They think it's their hard work and their training and attention to detail (and they're not wrong). That's what we've all been sold. It's what we sell the kids we coach...and there are lessons to be learned in that, virtues to be gained. It's about the work you put in, and we're not wrong, but it is...until it isn't. At some point (and most of us have butted up to this point) there comes a time when effort and will aren't enough (although we're taught different). You have to have the gifts too...because everyone else is working just as hard as you.
This isn't meant as a slight at all, quite the contrary. The people that succeed in our sport and most others do so because of a combination of gifts, passion, drive, dedication, coaching and luck.
I honestly believe (and I may be alone on this, which is ok), that to say John Smith (or anyone else) was successful due solely on their work ethic and training and technique is to deminish their physical attributes...and I don't believe recognizing those same attributes deminishes their work ethic or technique.
I was a freshman in high school the first time I saw Rex Holman wrestle. It was at a tourney with both Collins brothers, Mike Buddie, G.T. and Robert Taylor and a host of other super stars. Only Mike Buddie compared to Holman in the "freak" department, and he ended up in the major leagues. Amoung those names, Holman stood out. Not just because of his obvious dedication to the sport, his crisp and clean technique, his flawless mat awareness, but the fact that he was bigger, stronger, faster and more intuitive than everyone else. I use him as an example because we all respect him and his views. And he may come on here and disagree with me, but I can tell you, that was my perception at the time and he turned out a dominant high schooler and an NCAA champion.
Look at the greats from every sport, they're a combination of "freak" physical attributes, individual work ethic, great coaching and luck (to put the right kid in the right sport). Michael Phelps has a tremendous work ethic and training regiment, he also has a body that was crafted by the Gods to swim fast. One doesn't negate the other. If Kyle Snyder wins worlds from now till 2020 and takes his rightful place on America's Mount Rushmore of wrestling, it will be because of several factors...one of which will be his work ethic and commitment to the sport, and one will be his incredible physical gifts.
Sorry for the ramble.
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Discussion Topic: Olympic Thoughts
Roe Fox added to this discussion on August 27, 2016
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"The people that succeed in our sport and most others do so because of a combination of gifts, passion, drive, dedication, coaching and luck."
Michael: I agree. I think the topic really was started by the comment that Cox and Snyder are physical freaks with no mention of the other factors you cite. I also don't think that was intentional.
Snyder's drive and training have clearly enhanced his physical gifts. No simple freak of nature does what he has done since the Worlds.
Cox is the one, however, who I think looks drastically improved than his freshman year at Missouri. He did simply manhandle many of his opponents then. He looked far more polished to me at the Olympics than perhaps even the Trials. It tells me a lot about his work ethic and ability to receive coaching.
Quite frankly, most of the medalists in Rio looked physically "freakish" except for a few, like Yazdani, who is incredibly polished for such a young age.
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Discussion Topic: Olympic Thoughts
Lou Demas added to this discussion on August 27, 2016
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So if doesn't make a difference and wrestling is wrestling how many of high school coaches would want their wrestlers to exclusively train in freestyle and Greco in the offseason of their high school career? If this logic of training majority of a wrestlers career in folkstyle doesn't hinder their ability to succeed in the international styles it should be true,then training exclusively In freestyle and Greco the majority of time would not hinder them at the highest levels of folkstyle?
How many high school wrestlers who trained the majority of their career in freestyle and Greco would go on to be NCAA champions?
Even for those who trained majority in freestyle and Greco and who manage to still become high school state champs and be recruitable what would be the learning curve on how to develop their mat skills for that level or how to scramble and have no fear of exposing your back rather than give up two points.
I have personally talked to Olympic head coaches numerous world team members and Olympians and the overwhelming consensus is folkstyle does hinder our progress in the international styles.
SInce we are not very successful country in the international Styles I wonder who are these wrestlers who say it doesn't hinder us?
Also the argument that for the sports that do have the same rules and and are not successful also, there are other reasons we're not successful in those Sports.
Take judo for example it is one of the most popular sports in the world but not here in America, there are no Judo High School teams and Judo clubs are few. then if you throw in the problems they have in selection for the Olympic team members, which is a point system that helps the Judo players who can go to numerous tournaments make an Olympic team vs. the best make the team , well it's a no-brainer even though the rules atethe same we're not going to be successful in judo.
If I'm wrong then one of you very knowledgeable folkstyle supporters should be able to write up a training regimen that will ensure while training kids exclusively In freestyle and Greco the majority of their career they will have all the skills it's necessary to become an NCAA champions.
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Discussion Topic: Olympic Thoughts
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on August 27, 2016
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Just a couple of thoughts from the cheap seats.
First, does it really make much difference if we lead the world in wrestling? To those on this forum it does but to the vast majority of people they simply do not care. The things that guys mention here really affect a very small number of wrestlers.
IMO, it isn't so much about whether one style is better than another but how do we get kids to wrestle at all??? The numbers are dropping every year. There is a ton of talent at the top but the base is getting smaller (and the quality is less) every year. There is a huge difference in the ability of the "average" wrestler from the time I started officiating until now.
Second, I have always felt that there are three kinds of winners.
The are guys (and girls) who are naturally talented but don't work all that hard at improving. They win on their God given ability.
There are those who are not very talented but they work their butts off and achieve success that way.
Finally there are the people who are naturally talented AND they work very hard (like Kyle Snyder. They are the ones we all want to be and the ones we pay money to see. The problem is that there aren't many of these people and they can come from anywhere in the world.
Just because we are a big country with a large population does not mean we are always going to be the best. Now combine that with the fact that in some (many?) countries being successful in sports is your ticket to a MUCH better life and you have the desire to succeed.
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Discussion Topic: Olympic Thoughts
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on August 27, 2016
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No disrespect meant to the knowledgeable and sincere people on this forum but Lou nails it.
Comes down to this--do we want to stick with Folk as it's "our style" and uniquely American?
And, if so, are we willing to accept solid but unspectacular results on most occasions in international competition?
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Discussion Topic: Olympic Thoughts
Bruce Andrews added to this discussion on August 27, 2016
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Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
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"Comes down to this--do we want to stick with Folk as it's "our style" and uniquely American?
And, if so, are we willing to accept solid but unspectacular results on most occasions in international competition?"
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My personal vote: Yes and yes.
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Discussion Topic: Olympic Thoughts
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on August 27, 2016
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I get the view of Hank, Lou, and others who would like to switch. I would like to if only so O wouldn't have to coach bottom wrestling which is no fun.
John Smith's view holds a lot of weight for me. Why, because he, imho, is the GOAT of USA wrestling and has been successful on the mat and in the corner of it.
How Cox talks about his success also carries alot of weight. "I don't know freestyle that well but I do know wrestling."
When I was HC at Mechanicsburg, I ran a club that only taught FS (and some Greco ) in the off season. WAY more fun to keep wrestling but with variations. I think they all help each other.
There are other countries that wrestle only freestyle but we are better then they are. I don't think they talk of switching because they aren't as good.
Lou, what sports do the men in the USA dominate in?
Michael, I guess it may be that we are working off two different definitions of "physical freak" and defining the term may put us on the same page.
I define it this way, when your physical traits clearly set you apart from those you are competing against.
In the NFL, a league of physical freaks, there are some that stand head and shoulders above the rest. Howie Long said there were only two guys that stepped on the field when he was playing and the field tilted in their direction. Bo Jackson and Randy Moss. Those are physical freaks. In those terms, John Smith isn't a physical freak. Nobody talked about his athletic prowess. His physical attributes obviously didn't hinder him any either. On the other side Karelin was a physical freak even to those who competed against him (and they are physical freaks compared to the rest of us).
My $0.02 bit I love reading what you guys think because if you read with open mind, it can lead to growth, which I hope to accomplish for whenever I get back to being a HC again.
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