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Discussion Topic: The Women
Ethan Moore added to this discussion on August 18, 2016
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Hank - I agree about not being too negative. I believe they were trying to score, just couldn't figure it out.
I saw a lot of people complaining about Adeline 'not wrestling' the last 20 seconds. She was ahead on criteria, what was she supposed to do?
Lack of offense doesn't always mean lack of effort.
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Discussion Topic: The Women
Mike Stann added to this discussion on August 18, 2016
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Maroulis going for first USA women's gold medal. Unfortunately she will have to get by Japan's Yoshida going for her fourth gold medal.
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Discussion Topic: The Women
Mike Stann added to this discussion on August 18, 2016
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Quote from Ethan Moore's post:
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"Hank - I agree about not being too negative. I believe they were trying to score, just couldn't figure it out.
I saw a lot of people complaining about Adeline 'not wrestling' the last 20 seconds. She was ahead on criteria, what was she supposed to do?
Lack of offense doesn't always mean lack of effort."
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I also agree about not being negative. At one point it looked like the women could be going for three gold medals. Gray's upset is huge. She hadn't lost for 15 months I believe. Both her loss and Elena's were last second. There have been some really good matches today. Look forward to the medal round.
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Discussion Topic: The Women
J.P. Barner added to this discussion on August 18, 2016
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Quote from Mike Stann's post:
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"Maroulis going for first USA women's gold medal. Unfortunately she will have to get by Japan's Yoshida going for her fourth gold medal."
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Maroulis with the upset win! Heck of a match.
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Discussion Topic: The Women
Dan Harris added to this discussion on August 18, 2016
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Super happy to see Maroulis win it.After she lost in the 2012 trials, Maroulis got with Valentin Kalika (Aaron Pico's coach) for technique, Charles Poliquin (Canadian strength guru) and a nutritionist. As far as I can tell, she's been "all in" with these guys, especially for the last 2 years. I think one of the things that really helped her is the strength training. I'm not sure if women's wrestling is up to speed with this aspect of the sport, but I think Poliquin helped her to be one of the stronger women wrestlers to go along with great technique.
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Discussion Topic: The Women
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on August 18, 2016
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Maroulis wrestles and trains like a champion. Congrats to her on an epic win for Gold!
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Discussion Topic: The Women
Jeff Streu added to this discussion on August 18, 2016
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Maroulis defeats the Aleksandr Karelin of women's wrestling!
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Discussion Topic: The Women
Brian Nicola added to this discussion on August 22, 2016
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I just read a long, but very clear, post on themat.com by a Japanese citizen living in the USA. He (?) explains in great detail why Maroulis' win was so monumental and who Yoshida was to Japan. Great read, brought some things into focus for me. She almost is Gable-like, if Gable had won 16 golds. Actually, someone like Michael Jordan might be more accurate...her loss was above-the-fold front page stuff in Japan.
Go to themat.com, International Wrestling. The post is "The meaning of Saori Yoshida and the victory by Helen Maroulis"
Peace.
BRN
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Discussion Topic: The Women
Mike Stann added to this discussion on August 23, 2016
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Quote from Brian Nicola's post:
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"I just read a long, but very clear, post on themat.com by a Japanese citizen living in the USA. He (?) explains in great detail why Maroulis' win was so monumental and who Yoshida was to Japan. Great read, brought some things into focus for me. She almost is Gable-like, if Gable had won 16 golds. Actually, someone like Michael Jordan might be more accurate...her loss was above-the-fold front page stuff in Japan.
Go to themat.com, International Wrestling. The post is "The meaning of Saori Yoshida and the victory by Helen Maroulis"
Peace.
BRN"
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Brian, thank you so much for this post. That is probably the most touching post I have ever read on a wrestling forum. Also shows how much our media has missed one of the greatest stories of the Olympics.
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Discussion Topic: The Women
Brian Nicola added to this discussion on August 23, 2016
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Here it is from themat.com:
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"Hello, this is my first post on this forum, and would like to apologise in advance for its length. However, upon seeing history being made Thursday night and reading all the articles and interviews of Helen, I got the urge to want to share what I felt, and another way to view and appreciate what had happened that memorable night.
First of all, I would like to congratulate Helen Maroulis on becoming the first U.S. female wrestling gold medalist. However, I get a nagging feeling that she is not getting the true recognition that she deserves in her own country, or perhaps even among the wrestling fans in general. By no means am I trying to say negatively about her or U.S. wrestling or media, but I believe it will add further depth and understanding, by knowing who her opponent meant. Now, anyone on this forum would say that they already know what made Yoshida a legend, with her most likely unbreakable record of 16 straight world and Olympics gold metal, her incredible record of 206-3 in international matches, and so on. Those are definitely part of what made Yoshida a wrestling legend, but how many people outside Japan knows of Yoshida's legacy beyond her eye popping videogame like numbers? I believe knowing Saori Yoshida beyond her medals and win streak will further let people appreciate Helen Maroulis for what she did, and how she did it.
I currently reside in America and watched the Olympics using the NBC feed, but used to live in Japan. For years, I watched Saori Yoshida wrestle to legendary status in her home country. She started as a junior star teen wrestler with pedigree, her father and coach, the late Eikatsu Yoshida, former Japanese wrestling champion and women's wrestling team coach during the London Games in the wrestling community. She started to become known in public after Athens gold and the media started to give more spotlight, with her win streak starting to get known to the general public. With her growing consecutive win streak, she shot up to stardom after every win. The media started to follow her to her training at Shigakukan University where she was a student of during Athens, and the wrestling club captain. One grade junior to her in the same club was a wrestler named Kaori Icho. Even after graduating, Yoshida often returned to the club to train with her juniors and give advices. Aspiring wrestlers around the country came to Shigakukan University to meet and train with Yoshida. Until last year, Eri Tosaka was the wrestling club captain. She had first met with Yoshida when she was in elementary school. Tosaka begged to her parents to take her to the University so she could meet her idol, and got to take a photo with Yoshida, a picture she still treasures more than ten years later. When Tosaka was captain, the vice captain was named Risako Kawai. Upon their graduation, the wrestler who took over and is the current captain of the club is named Sara Dosho. She grew up attending the wrestling school taught by Eikatsu Yoshida.
The American feed understandingly focused on Helen after the game, and only some clips of Yoshida crying. What was not seen outside Japan was that during the same time, her teammates were in the spectator stands as well. The three time World champion and Olympic gold medalist was wailing like a child, tears streaming down her face. The four time Olympic gold medalist covered her eyes and hurridly left the Arena, without commenting anything to the media surrounding them. The current Shigakukan University wrestling club captain and gold medalist kept her face smothered in her towel, and couldn't crack a smile even when her upper-classman got her first gold. Their emotions weren't simply that of teammates saddened that one of their members lost a gold medal. Japan has had others who were expected to medal and faltered, and it didn't have the same reaction. They were emotions felt toward the one who was their captain, friend, rival, mentor, idol, teacher, sisterly figure, and much more. Saori Yoshida wasn't respected simply because she was a Guinesse record holder in most consecutive world gold medals won, or her individual match win streak of 206 matches. She was what women's wrestling meant for them, and this generation of wrestlers, athletes, and the country.
As a country, when their star player loses, people are saddened. Yoshida, until Rio, never failed to deliver...which lasted so long, possibly even too long, that she eventually became the star one would go to rely on delivering the win that everyone wanted. Other star athletes could lose, but Yoshida will not, and shall not, lose...because she is not allowed to lose, she is Saori Yoshida. Still, despite seeming unbeatable at times, outside wrestling Saori Yoshida is known for being very feminine. She loves to cuddle with her dog in bed with pink pajamas, and loves to eat crepes while hanging out with her juniors on off days (a high ratio of it being with Tosaka). It has almost become a staple to be asked of her goals for the year during an interview, and answer "I want to get married!" with passion, where they were expecting a wrestling related goal. Inside, she was a normal women, like any other person...but she wasn't considered as one.
Prior to yesterday, Yoshida has had times when the country thought her win streak might end. In 2014 when her beloved father and coach Eikatsu suddenly passed away due to a tradegic incident, it was unknown how she would react to not having her father at the match. She ended up winning the gold in the Asian and World championship later that year. In the 2015 finals she was trailing late in the math to Mattson, only to overtake in the last minute. Even after losing her father, she was Saori Yoshida...why did anyone have to worry, she is unfazed and still strong.
My Japanese friend was one of the countless Japanese who woke up early to watch Yoshida go for history. Her loss was shocking, but her immediate comments after the match was even more heartbreaking. After Yoshida lost, she was crying in front of the camera, desperately apologizing to the people of Japan. "How could I make up to my country, what have I done, how could I atone for this, I failed to do my job as the captain of Team Japan, I have betrayed everyone who believed in me, no amount of words can make up for this, I am so sorry..." She sounded like as if she had just commited treason. To him, watching her break down like that was a gutwrenching reminder of how much pressure and expectation the country had unfairly continued to pile on Yoshida over the years. Who should be Team Japan captain? let's make it Yoshida, it will make a good timing to celebrate a historical achievement by Team Japan captain in Rio. Her father passed away, so bring her mother with his photo, what a great scene it will be when she dedicates her medal to her late father. Three golds by Tosaka, Icho and Dosho? Great, now prepare the celebration article for a double four peat, we want to be the first to publish it on front page... What pressure, you think Yoshida feels pressure? No way, she is a gold winning robot afterall.
Non-Japanese wrestling fans might think her tears and breakdown after her loss was because she was sad that her chance for a fourpeat got dashed, or that she wasn't able to cope with the loss because Yoshida wasn't used to losing, or perhaps even that she felt like she had the ego and couldn't give the proper respect Maroulis deserved, or that she was simply being a dramatic loser...but I don't think that is the case. Her breakdown was a floodgate of emotions she had kept to herself for 15 years, while continuing to desperately portray THE LEGEND OF INVINCIBLE SAORI YOSHIDA the country has come to expect from her.
Following live wrestling, it was morning news for Japan. A memorable comment by one of the news caster was, "this morning, I believe everyone in Japan wanted to see the second fourpeat. We didn't get to see it, but I believe no one in Japan blames Yoshida about it. What we want isn't hearing her apologizing in tears, what we want is to say thank you to Saori Yoshida. You gave Japan three Olympic gold medals in the past three Olympics. In Rio, you gave Japan three new Olympic gold medalists."
Other countries might think now that Yoshida failed to fourpeat, Kaori Icho is the greatest female wrestler of all time. That is not the case. Kaori Icho is a legend of her own regardless of Saori Yoshida, and that takes nothing away from her accomplishments. However, Kaori Icho is a legendary Japanese wrestler, where Saori Yoshida IS Japanese women's wrestling. Whether she decides to hang up tomorrow, continue for another Worlds, or continue until her back gives out, or strive for Tokyo, it will not change what Saori Yoshida was, and is. Eri Tosaka age 22, Risako Kawai age 21, Sara Dosho age 21, and others...whether or not Yoshida herself is at Tokyo, what Yoshida symbolizes will be there to represent the host country in 2020.
Lastly, to Helen Maroulis, as a American fan who simply loves and appreciates the sport of women's wrestling, thank you for being the wrestler who defeated Saori Yoshida in the biggest stage with the utmost grace, strength, skills, but most of all...true class and respect. Your match was beautiful, flawless, and fair played, only thing outshining it was your tears and smile during the medal ceremony.
Did you know that you have become a household name in Japan overnight? The front page of all major national newspapers had a picture of you and Yoshida on them? Your name had become a top google trend search, and your interviews has been translated word for word, to every detail including how you wanted to indulge in cake, and that you don't like peanut butter. The more Japan learns about you, your personality, sincerity, passion...the more respectable, likable, and rootable you become, not as "the one who ended Yoshida's streak" but as Helen Maroulis, the 24 yrs old American female wrestler, and the Olympic gold medalist.
I would like to close my appreciation toward Helen with these words translated directly from my aforementioned friends in Japan:
"As long as Father Time exists, we should have known that someday even legends like Yoshida will suffer a loss. Yet, somewhere in our minds we were taking Saori Yoshida for granted...she was expected, and assumed to win gold, would have been wrong to not win for the country, and she had fought for 15 years carrying all that pressure by herself. All of Japan wanted to see history made by Yoshida yesterday, but unfortunately it didn't occur. However, even without the fourpeat, the country still proudly believes Saori Yoshida is the greatest female wrestler to ever play the game, and her legend and legacy isn't lessened in any way due to the loss. If anything, the fact that her first individual match loss ever came in the shape of the first women's wrestling gold medal for U.S. might be as fitting and worthy of a situation it could be for her first loss.
Past the initial shock, this probably was a best case scenario for a loss for Yoshida. Imagine, had Yoshida lost due to an injury suffered due to rough play in earlier rounds and had to forfeit. Or, her knees and back issues had reached the limit, forcing a surgery. Or, had she lost due to what could be seen like a missed or biased judging. Or, had she lost due to fluke points, then an opponent that just focused on fleeing until the time came. They all would end in a loss, except the country would be stuck in "what-if" debates and bitterness toward "the one" who won. Instead, we got an opponent who won with takedowns, and continued to fight until the last seconds with dignity, pride and respect...the way we loved watching Yoshida win for a decade and a half.
Helen Maroulis, thank you for being "the one" who showed everything to win, proved you should win, and deserved to win. That historical night, from everyone's eyes you were the strongest 53kg wrestler in the Arena. We hope to see you again in Tokyo, and hopefully, the gold medal match will yet again feature two women, each bearing the flag of the Rising Sun and the Star-Spangled Banner.
Not for a simple revenge match, but with hope to have another memorable, classic match once again"
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Discussion Topic: The Women
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on August 23, 2016
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Brian, I saw this posted on yappi. Shared with Maroulis on twitter. She seemed impressed. It was a great testament to both her and Yoshida.
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Discussion Topic: The Women
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on August 23, 2016
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A few days ago I finally got around to watching the Terry Brands special on Flo. It's over an hour and very well done. One of the main focal points of the film is Terry's loss in the 1996 Olympic Trials to Kendall Cross. Terry--already a 2x World Champion--is so devastated by the loss that he can barely function. He goes into a deep depression and struggles to come to grips with why he lost. In his own words, he must have deserved to lose....must have failed to do something right in how he prepared (I'm paraphrasing). He also mentions that this is what his father had said to him as well (although Dad is later shown giving him a hug).
For Brands--the ultimate workaholic--the loss is a personal failing. Somehow he didn't do enough to earn his spot on the Olympic team. For Yoshida--who comes from a culture which prizes national honor--the loss means she failed her country.
And then there are people like Kyle Snyder and Adeline Gray who talk about how the most important thing is to honor the process. You train as well as you can, give your all to the process of preparation, and make your grandest effort. It's it's enough to win then good for you. And if it's not, then the loss, while painful, is not a personal flaw or failing.
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