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Discussion Topic: Cleveland Right Now
Mike Stann added to this discussion on July 14, 2016

Quote from Mark Niemann's post:

"Michael: I guess I should have posed it as legislating equality. The opposite of legislating equality is not legislating or even striving for inequality but rather not having a government agency attempting to legeslate the equality.

It is impossible to do. Moreover, I do not see that as a necessary task the government should do. Individuals should be free to rise and fall on their own."



Mark government wouldn't have to legislate equality if we as a people practiced it. However that has not happened in our history. Unequal pay for the same job, child labor, poll taxes, segregated schools these are just some of the evils perpetrated by the thought that some Americans are inherently better than others.



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Discussion Topic: Cleveland Right Now
David Brown added to this discussion on July 14, 2016

Sounds like Mark wishes the powers that be would appeal to our better nature rather than just make a law. No question there have been times Gov had to intervene though and make a law to protect the vulnerable. The Right needs to remember this.

The Left needs to remember that laws always have unintended consequences. The Great Society became the Projects, The Enlarged Homestead Act became the Dustbowl, AA has led to perfectly qualified people being looked over for selection, Gov entitlement programs have led to crippling entire communities who can't take care of themselves.

Here in Detroit the evidence of the government's "help" is everywhere. Thanks to the conviction of some very corrupt politicians and the passion of a few businessmen and women Detroit is limping forward. The old-timers here tell me of a time when black men had jobs, had money and lived with their families...because they HAD to. You can hear the sadness in their voices as they talk about the shame they feel toward their sons and grandsons.

The government safety net is a helluva debate - philosophically and morally. How much is too much? When does helping become hurtful? I like to think I understand it but I know I have gaps in my vision, we all do.



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Discussion Topic: Cleveland Right Now
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on July 14, 2016

If I understand Mark correctly, it reminds of a phrase that I learned LONG ago but it still sticks with me.

You can not legislate morality or common sense.

That said, my view on government is that it is to do for us collectively what we can not do individually. For example building roads, police and fire protection, schools, and so on.
I don't need government intervention to tell me how to act.

Mike poses the question, "But do they rise and fall on their own? And is a society that allows them to really what you want?"

I would say absolutely that is what I want. Speaking only for myself, I do not feel responsible for the decisions, good or bad, that other people make.



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Discussion Topic: Cleveland Right Now
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on July 14, 2016

Take a second and think what America would look like in the society being proposed. Letting people rise and fall on their own takes away Medicare, Medicaid, social security, food stamps, unemployment assistance and a host of other programs that keep a segment of this country from slipping into complete chaos. How many elderly Americans would be homeless without social security? How many kids wouldn't have healthcare without Medicaid? Back to our seniors, can you imagine what this country would look like without Medicare? Do you think insurance companies would be lining up to cover citizens on a fixed income who need medication and services that greatly surpass what any premium would be?

And that's just scratching the surface, and just talking about "entitlement programs". Government passes laws with regard to civil rights, regulations that do everything from help with clean air and water to keep people safe in the workplace.

Take all that away and I promise you, only a very small segment of the population would be happy with the results.



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Discussion Topic: Cleveland Right Now
David Brown added to this discussion on July 15, 2016

Michael, each program you mentioned, save EBT, come right out of our checks. Each person pays for those programs from their own checks. (With unemployment employers pay into that kitty). These programs are not saviors - just poorly sponsored and poorly conceived, poorly managed investments with weak returns.

What did people do before these wonderful programs? They had more money to invest as they saw fit. Companies had more money to offer pensions. Notice the spike in healthcare costs on the heels of medicare, medicaid and the AC Act. SS is a terrible dollar for dollar investment. As the old saying goes with Gov, "If you think our problems are bad, wait until you see our solutions."

Yes, now that these programs are woven into our DNA it would be cruel to pull the rug out. But it is cynical to assume people cannot thrive without Gov assistance. In an effort to eliminate all suffering, we have created more.



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Discussion Topic: Cleveland Right Now
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on July 15, 2016

I get your point, honestly I do. I struggle with this this daily. I have never used a government program. Never been unemployed or uninsured. I don't even pay into social security. I'm nothing special. If I can do it than so can most others. There are days that I feel that way. But then I see the reality of poverty in America and its clear that not everyone can do the things that many of us see as the normal day-to-day stuff of life.

I honesly don't know what the answer is...but I'm open to listening to anyone who thinks they do.



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Discussion Topic: Cleveland Right Now
Roe Fox added to this discussion on July 15, 2016

I can't understand the argument that suggests that while we all agree that government is dysfunctional and ineffective, it is also the solution to a lot of problems.

If we go back to following the Constitution more honestly we would be a far better country. That document set up a limited structure of government, with checks and balances, and restrictions on what the government can do to the individual.

And for those who believe it is outdated and doesn't keep up with the times, remember that it was drafted to allow for its amendment should someone choosing to change it make their case to the people.

Individual freedom allows those who are impoverished, white, black or otherwise, the OPPORTUNITY to succeed. Whether that opportunity is seized is up to the individual.



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Discussion Topic: Cleveland Right Now
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on July 15, 2016

Quote from Roe Fox's post:

"...Individual freedom allows those who are impoverished, white, black or otherwise, the OPPORTUNITY to succeed. Whether that opportunity is seized is up to the individual."


When there is institutional inequality in a country (and I believe it has existed in America since its inception) individual freedom is a myth. You're only as free as your situation allows you to be. Go to inner city schools in East St Louis, South-Central LA, Chicago, Cleveland or a host of other communities across the country. Tell me if those kids are "free". Tell me if they have equality of opportunity. Do some "make it out"? Yes. But the ones who don't (and that's most of them) don't stay in poverty by choice. No one wants to live there, bring their family up there. There are obstacles in their way that middle class kids don't face. It's far from equal.

If people were better, if the world was better, then I'd be a "lift yourself up by your boot straps" guy. But the way the world is now, and always has been, that just seems inherantly unfair.



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Discussion Topic: Cleveland Right Now
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on July 15, 2016

Michael: one quick point as I am quite busy - will return to read all of what is typed from all - you mentioned what society would look like without all of some programs...

I would hope that we as individuals (or even groups; 4-H clubs? Cub or Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, churches, etc - but all private) would step up and help.

The invisible hand of the government cannot replace the visible hand of a neighbor.



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Discussion Topic: Cleveland Right Now
Rick Wasmer added to this discussion on July 15, 2016

Quote from Michael Rodriguez's post:

"

Quote from Roe Fox's post:

"...Individual freedom allows those who are impoverished, white, black or otherwise, the OPPORTUNITY to succeed. Whether that opportunity is seized is up to the individual."


When there is institutional inequality in a country (and I believe it has existed in America since its inception) individual freedom is a myth. You're only as free as your situation allows you to be. Go to inner city schools in East St Louis, South-Central LA, Chicago, Cleveland or a host of other communities across the country. Tell me if those kids are "free". Tell me if they have equality of opportunity. Do some "make it out"? Yes. But the ones who don't (and that's most of them) don't stay in poverty by choice. No one wants to live there, bring their family up there. There are obstacles in their way that middle class kids don't face. It's far from equal.

If people were better, if the world was better, then I'd be a "lift yourself up by your boot straps" guy. But the way the world is now, and always has been, that just seems inherantly unfair."



I agree.



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Discussion Topic: Cleveland Right Now
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on July 15, 2016

Quote from Michael Rodriguez's post:

"
When there is institutional inequality in a country (and I believe it has existed in America since its inception) individual freedom is a myth. You're only as free as your situation allows you to be. Go to inner city schools in East St Louis, South-Central LA, Chicago, Cleveland or a host of other communities across the country. Tell me if those kids are "free". Tell me if they have equality of opportunity. Do some "make it out"? Yes. But the ones who don't (and that's most of them) don't stay in poverty by choice. No one wants to live there, bring their family up there. There are obstacles in their way that middle class kids don't face. It's far from equal."



It will NEVER be equal. Ever. Kids in Mechanicsburg don't have "equal" education as kids in Bellefontaine. Kids in Bellefontaine don't have "equal" education as those in Dublin. etc. etc.

Where in out Constitution or Bill of Rights does it say everything - education, opportunities, etc. have to be "equal"?

To put it in wrestling terms, do kids in great programs in this state have an advantage over kids in programs were the coach knows very little and is only in the room from Nov to March (if they manage to get somebody to the state (or states depending on whose talking) tournament? Do they have an "equal" chance at winning a state title? Some manage to win despite there surroundings, but that number is very small.

I know all analogys break down - and mine does quickly - but you get the point I'm making. If you really want something bad enough that you are willing to life like nobody else to achieve it, it is possible. Life - check. Liberty - check. The pursuit of happiness - check. All are possible where ever you live. Some places those are easier to come by. Some they are far more difficult to achieve. But possible everywhere.



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Discussion Topic: Cleveland Right Now
David Brown added to this discussion on July 15, 2016

I agree that inequalities and injustices abound...and are usually exacerbated by Gov solutions.

Why is automatically assumed that a Gov solution is the best solution? We didn't always think that way as a country.

Conyers has managed to pull zillions of dollars from Washington into Detroit PS. Graduation rate is currently 26%.

No amount of Gov solutions or money can replace fathers, jobs, hope or community. But Gov. will keep trying so we can all feel like we are doing something, so our compassion can have an outlet.

At the height of Gov regulation and intervention and spending the wealth gap is the GREATEST. Just think about that. Not a coincidence.

Indiana's solution was not to do more but less. Vouchers empower families and cause public schools to compete. Do well or fade away, just like a business. My PS teacher friends in Fort Wayne say it has "rattled the cage" and caused them to be more innovative.
One bright spot in an otherwise dimming world of big Gov solutions.



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Discussion Topic: Cleveland Right Now
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on July 15, 2016

Quote from David Brown's post:

"I agree that inequalities and injustices abound...and are usually exacerbated by Gov solutions.

Why is automatically assumed that a Gov solution is the best solution? We didn't always think that way as a country.

Conyers has managed to pull zillions of dollars from Washington into Detroit PS. Graduation rate is currently 26%.

No amount of Gov solutions or money can replace fathers, jobs, hope or community. But Gov. will keep trying so we can all feel like we are doing something, so our compassion can have an outlet.

At the height of Gov regulation and intervention and spending the wealth gap is the GREATEST. Just think about that. Not a coincidence.

Indiana's solution was not to do more but less. Vouchers empower families and cause public schools to compete. Do well or fade away, just like a business. My PS teacher friends in Fort Wayne say it has "rattled the cage" and caused them to be more innovative.
One bright spot in an otherwise dimming world of big Gov solutions."



Agree. When people starting trying to solve their own problems rather than wait for somebody else / Gov to do it, things may start to get done.



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Discussion Topic: Cleveland Right Now
Rick Wasmer added to this discussion on July 15, 2016

CEPI reported that graduation rates rose from 2012-13 to 2013-14 in all 10 of the districts with the biggest graduating classes, including Detroit Public Schools, which rose from 64.55 percent to 71.05 percent



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Discussion Topic: Cleveland Right Now
David Brown added to this discussion on July 15, 2016

My bad Rick. Unfair use of old stats from the 2000s. DPS has improved graduation rates a lot. Now we deal with epic budget shortfalls and mass teacher "sit-outs."
The introduction of charter schools up here is also a hot topic. Some think charter school enrollment will exceed PS enrollment before long.



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