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Discussion Topic: Askren explains Nico takedown
Rex Holman added to this discussion on March 25, 2016
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https://www.facebook.com/askrenbros/?ref=br_rs#
This is great and helps explain my viewpoint on being excellent at a position.
Being excellent at a position which your opponent does not clearly understand gives you advantage.
Ben gives props for doing a ballsy move, whereas I give props for being better prepared at a position that seems ambiguous but actually gives advantage.
Props to Ben for taking the time to educate wrestlers.
I have heard the argument of why should people spend their time working on obscure technique. You can't count on gimmicks to win.
It is not obscure or gimmick if you find yourself in a positional iteration. I am willing to bet that Nico has found himself in that position over the course of his career hundreds of times and that he has an evolved skillset from that distinct position as evidenced by the finals match.
The position evolved out of defending a single leg attack. Does that happen often? This is elite level. Truthfully, winning comes down to being better at the position which is engaged. Nico was better.
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Discussion Topic: Askren explains Nico takedown
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on March 25, 2016
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Having read your thoughts on the position battle before, is it your thought that Nico was well-versed in this particular position due to drilling it? As in, he actually spent time in this position to master it, believing he would a) end up there eventually or b) put his opponent into the position?
Which scenario do you think occurred during the match - A or B?
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Discussion Topic: Askren explains Nico takedown
Rex Holman added to this discussion on March 25, 2016
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Based on my experience and how things really work->I think it evolved.
Most likely he played around with the position in practice. Maybe not even drilling per se, but getting there and wrestling from there on numerous occasions.
Seatbelt is a position everyone should wrestle from in situations. It occurs repeatedly.
Gilman was in on a deep seatbelt and Nico had one of two options left go after the leg or fight the whizzer. Two choices. You need to learn how to wrestle from both of them.
So, I think he learned how to wrestle there from actual prior experience which could have been augmented by practicing the seatbelt situation.
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Discussion Topic: Askren explains Nico takedown
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on March 25, 2016
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I remember when Kilgore, who'd had a dominating senior season, was favored to beat Q. Wright from PSU several years ago. Wright had a plan from positions Kilgore liked and got several easy TD's and won. I have no doubt Cael came up with the plan.
Same with Mega. The "professor" knows how to get his wrestlers ready.
Best Ohio high school coach in this regard was Tony DiGiovanni at Solon. You never wanted to take on one of his guys in a money match because there was always a wrinkle coming.
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Discussion Topic: Askren explains Nico takedown
Rex Holman added to this discussion on March 25, 2016
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Discussion Topic: Askren explains Nico takedown
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on March 25, 2016
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Quote from Rex Holman's post:
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" Most likely he played around with the position in practice. Maybe not even drilling per se, but getting there and wrestling from there on numerous occasions."
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You'd be correct. Cael has his guys "play" wrestle where they do that exact thing -- play with positions, rolling around and then slowing it down to "figure out" those positions.
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Discussion Topic: Askren explains Nico takedown
Ryan Dickson added to this discussion on March 26, 2016
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AWESOME! I believe "sparring" that Cael talks about a lot instead of straight up live go's or drilling helps in becoming proficient in awkward positions and that TD was a thing of beauty probably created out of a sparring session..Or as Brady calls it "Play" wrestling LOVE IT!
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Discussion Topic: Askren explains Nico takedown
Justin Hayes added to this discussion on March 26, 2016
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Quote from Ryan Dickson's post:
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"AWESOME! I believe "sparring" that Cael talks about a lot instead of straight up live go's or drilling helps in becoming proficient in awkward positions and that TD was a thing of beauty probably created out of a sparring session..Or as Brady calls it "Play" wrestling LOVE IT!"
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As an aside, I believe UFC Fighter Conor McGregor ascribes to this as well.
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Discussion Topic: Askren explains Nico takedown
Jeff Streu added to this discussion on March 26, 2016
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Quote from Justin Hayes's post:
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"
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Quote from Ryan Dickson's post:
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"AWESOME! I believe "sparring" that Cael talks about a lot instead of straight up live go's or drilling helps in becoming proficient in awkward positions and that TD was a thing of beauty probably created out of a sparring session..Or as Brady calls it "Play" wrestling LOVE IT!"
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As an aside, I believe UFC Fighter Conor McGregor ascribes to this as well."
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So do the Russians! It is the best of both worlds between drilling and live. Great for conditioning and for technique.
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Discussion Topic: Askren explains Nico takedown
Rex Holman added to this discussion on March 26, 2016
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Yes. One more tool in the coaching toolkit.
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Discussion Topic: Askren explains Nico takedown
Justin Hayes added to this discussion on March 26, 2016
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Quote from Rex Holman's post:
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"https://www.facebook.com/askrenbros/?ref=br_rs#
This is great and helps explain my viewpoint on being excellent at a position.
Being excellent at a position which your opponent does not clearly understand gives you advantage.
Ben gives props for doing a ballsy move, whereas I give props for being better prepared at a position that seems ambiguous but actually gives advantage.
Props to Ben for taking the time to educate wrestlers.
I have heard the argument of why should people spend their time working on obscure technique. You can't count on gimmicks to win.
It is not obscure or gimmick if you find yourself in a positional iteration. I am willing to bet that Nico has found himself in that position over the course of his career hundreds of times and that he has an evolved skillset from that distinct position as evidenced by the finals match.
The position evolved out of defending a single leg attack. Does that happen often? This is elite level. Truthfully, winning comes down to being better at the position which is engaged. Nico was better."
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What looked flukey to a neophyte while watching live, now seems very purposeful and technical when demonstrated by Askren. Lots of steps, but intended steps.
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Discussion Topic: Askren explains Nico takedown
Bill Splete added to this discussion on March 27, 2016
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The technique of sparring and its evolution with the penn state program has some reference to his Iowa state days, but I have never heard Cael reference Bobby Douglas or some of his coaching style that looks/is very similar to that which Douglas used at asu then at Iowa state, I think cael is perfecting it especially as it relates to uncommon even uncomfortable positions and making them scoring opportunities for his athletes, they look relaxed and at ease which is why they are scoring in positions like nico gets in, but the sparring isn't new, sometimes Douglas doesn't get enough credit for a lot his success as a coach.
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Discussion Topic: Askren explains Nico takedown
Rex Holman added to this discussion on March 28, 2016
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Longwinded response and filling in gaps.
I counted up six different tasks of position during Megaludis counter.
1) plant Gilmans toe in the mat(Prevents sprawl and keeps his hips in)
2) slip his arm past and hook Gilmans far leg (critical as he took a big risk in getting extended with one hand on a foot-the reason it was ballsy)
3) sit Gilman to his hip
4) redirect action by lifting Gilman up
5) flipping all the way through (back roll)
6) swimming to head and getting control.
That is a lot of stuff.
While the play/sparring method of developing wrestling skill has great merit; it is not always appropriate for the junior wrestler as they need more assistance in filling in the gaps. Even at the collegiate level, guys go an entire career without understanding some basic nuances of position.
I didn’t know what I saw the first time viewing it, (nor did I really care that much) However, Askren talking about it and watching it multiple time gave me a new appreciation for what Megaludis did.
Wresting has and always will be a battle for position. Improve position by winning the little battles and eventually gain advantage; opposite that you lose.
While an advanced wrestler may be able to string a 6 task series of positional wrestling together based upon something they figured out in the lab (wrestling room); a young guy will typically only be able to marry 1-3 task series together. This where coaching is critical in developing awareness for position and how to wrestle from it.
The way you would break it down for a wrestler is by tasks, starting with the seat belt position and then proceed forward with instruction, individual task, drilling and wrestling. A huge and comprehensive labor and effort intensive process, but doable.
Gilman knew how to wrestle from that position, but was unprepared for the curve that Mega threw at him. Prior to that, he was in on a deep single into a seatbelt and had advantage.
Had Gilman worked to finish low like Nate did against Megaludis in Big Tens, he would not have been subjected to that position and stood a much higher probability of scoring.
Low finishes take a lot of the scramble out of the position.
Gilman finished low on Nate from a head outside single which stuffed Nate’s counter.
Megaludis was disciplined and methodical in his match against Terao. He finished low and prevented the scrambles which Terao wanted to engage.Nate did the same thing and eliminated Terao's scoring abilities.
Finishing high works sometimes, but against a crafty wrestler it invites the scramble.
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