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2019 UWW Senior World Championships
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2019 Junior Boys' Freestyle National Duals
Division changes for 2019-2020 OHSAA Dual Championships
2019 AAU National Duals (Disney Duals)
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Discussion Topic: National Duals
Jim Kessen added to this discussion on January 25, 2016

I saw this on Theopenmat Forum and thought I would share.

Early glimpse at the National Duals "Bowls"

#1 Penn State 10-0 Big Ten vs #3 N.C. State (1) 17-0 ACC
#2 Iowa 11-0 Big Ten vs #5 Oklahoma State 6-2 Big 12 (given the beat down of Missouri Friday night OKSU will move ahead of Missouri
#8 Michigan 7-1 Big Ten vs #4 Missouri 9-0 MAC 4 (if Lehigh doesn't poke ahead of the Tigers after beating Cornell)
#9 Ohio State 6-2 Big Ten vs #6 Lehigh 10-1 EIWA 8 (or Missouri)
#11 Nebraska 8-3 Big Ten vs NR Oregon State PAC 12
#12 Rutgers 11-3 Big Ten vs NR Edinboro
#13 Illinois 10-3 Big Ten vs NR Appalachian State or Chattanooga
# 20 Purdue 7-2 Big Ten vs ?

I presume they may shift some match ups to avoid rematches of earlier duals.

I would love to see OSU get a shot at the other OSU there would be some awesome matches

Heil vs. Jordan
Ringer vs. Jordan



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Discussion Topic: National Duals
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on January 25, 2016

Bucks schedule over next three weeks:

IU and Purdue next weekend. (IU is improved but still has too many soft spots. Purdue is similar)
PSU (road dual in front of sell out...every bout's a brawl)
Wiscy (the trap dual--not only Jordan v Jordan but it's almost impossible to be mentally charged up after PSU...fortunately it's a home dual)

National Duals--Bucks should send a lineup of backups and just get home in one piece. It might have actually helped team last year to lose first round. No one needs to wrestle 4-5 matches two weeks before Big Tens.



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Discussion Topic: National Duals
Pat Altvater added to this discussion on January 25, 2016

Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:

"


National Duals--Bucks should send a lineup of backups and just get home in one piece. It might have actually helped team last year to lose first round. No one needs to wrestle 4-5 matches two weeks before Big Tens."



Am I old-fashioned, or is it wrong to believe that every team and coach should give their ultimate effort for every competition? - You'll never hear Urban (or Woody, or Earle) say that a given game isn't important to win!

I really dislike this format of 'bowl' games. - As I can see, they mean absolutely nothing except they count as an extra dual, and as Hank commented, alot of the coaches don't really take duals seriously anyway. - There seems to be a concept of 'national tournament champion' or bust.

I really liked the concept of the former national duals tournament where you bring in the 16 best teams in the country and let them fight it out on the mat. At the end of a long tough weekend the winner - The National Duals Team - stands victorious. That is the essence of competition.

Most people would not agree with me, but I would be prouder of a true team dual championship than a regular tournament championship. - As we have seen, 4 or 5 guys can win a tournament. - The team duals requires a premium effort from the entire 10 competing members. - It is a TEAM event, not an individual event. - I love that team mentality and dynamic.

This bowl format is nothing but a 'paper championship', with two of the highest ranked teams 'at the time' wrestling a match. - It's extremely possible, and likely, that the two best teams in the country don't get into that finals match. - A lot of that would depend on the health and depth of the team to stay undefeated so far this year.

I prefer a head to head team situation with everyone's best wrestlers fighting it out on the mat.

JUST MY OPINION!



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Discussion Topic: National Duals
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on January 25, 2016

Pat: Good thoughts. Football is obviously not wrestling. Every game matters for rankings and championship contention in the former. In wrestling....the sport's championship is based on individual talent performing in a pressure setting.

I'll bet everyone on this forum would rather see the Bucks beat PSU in a few weeks than win National Duals. I would...it would mean more to knock them off than anyone else in the country.

Would not surprise me at all if Bucks take a number of backups to Indiana/Purdue this weekend and liberally sub when possible so as to win duals while helping guys avoid wear and tear. Really a shame there's no one to step in at 125. Perfect weekend to rest Nate.



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Discussion Topic: National Duals
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on January 25, 2016

Quote from Pat Altvater's post:

"...Most people would not agree with me, but I would be prouder of a true team dual championship than a regular tournament championship. - As we have seen, 4 or 5 guys can win a tournament. - The team duals requires a premium effort from the entire 10 competing members. - It is a TEAM event, not an individual event. - I love that team mentality and dynamic..."



Just wondering, did you feel that way when you were competing? Would you rather have taken fourth in the state tourney and your team win the title or you win a state title and your team finish fourth?



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Discussion Topic: National Duals
Pat Altvater added to this discussion on January 25, 2016

Quote from Michael Rodriguez's post:

"

Quote from Pat Altvater's post:

"...Most people would not agree with me, but I would be prouder of a true team dual championship than a regular tournament championship. - As we have seen, 4 or 5 guys can win a tournament. - The team duals requires a premium effort from the entire 10 competing members. - It is a TEAM event, not an individual event. - I love that team mentality and dynamic..."



Just wondering, did you feel that way when you were competing? Would you rather have taken fourth in the state tourney and your team win the title or you win a state title and your team finish fourth?"



Kenny Courts took fifth last year on a national championship team, and he looked pretty happy to me!

Unfortunately, me or my team were never at that level, but to honestly answer that question, I would rather have the team championship. - I have always loved the comraderie of a team dynamic, in which you fight hard, train hard, and share heartily in the victory.(The Band OF Brothers.) - I even took some pride from the fact that the guys that trained by beating the crap out of me every day eventually got to regionals. (I guess its a 'Rudy' mentality, you give it all you've got, and expect the more talented guys to do the same every day.)

In most team sports, the effort of your weakest player can have almost as much impact as the more gifted players. Would OSU have won the 2014 football championship without a competent cornerback, or linebacker, or offensive lineman. - Every effort counts.

Theoretically, at the NCAA Wrestling tournament, 4 guys off of one team can be finalists, and the other 6 could finish last in their class, and that team could still win a championship. - In theory, 4 'freakish athletes' can win a tournament championship with 10 classes, and nobody else matters.

I am not sure that speaks well for competition. - If you are not in the top 1/2 of one percent, you should just quit. There is no place for you in the sport. - I don't think that should ever be true. Competition at all levels is good, and should be recognized accordingly.

So, yes, I like team dual formats where the tenth guy on your team could be the deciding factor in the match by only giving up a regular decision, instead of a major. - That is drama, and that is recognizing the 'underappreciated' guy for his efforts.

JUST MY OPINION, EVERYONE ELSE IS WELCOME TO THEIRS!!



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Discussion Topic: National Duals
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on January 25, 2016

Pat...I'm not coming at you. It's a valid opinion. I just have never felt that way, so I was wondering. For me, the individual aspect of the sport was a big part of what I loved about it. I was on some decent teams, and that was fun to be a part of, but the individual stuff was what I was about (for better or worse). I'd be interested to know where others fell on that question...individual success verses team success? I know both would be ideal, but if you could only have one???



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Discussion Topic: National Duals
Casey Talbott added to this discussion on January 25, 2016

Michael:
Interesting question, so I will bite.
My senior year my team (Cardinal Stritch) finished second, with 95.5 points to Bedford Chanel’s 100.5. Blech.
This was a true two-team race, with Swanton finishing a distant third (to my recall, with 48).
I was ranked 2nd in Brakeman, behind a tough kid from Bishop Watterson (Joe Ghezzi, who won it, and then went on to wrestle at Iowa State), and one of my teammates, Aaron Peters (who later wrestled at the Naval Academy, and then went on to a distinguished career serving our country), was ranked 4th.
Unfortunately, Aaron and I both suffered serious injuries (a blown-out knee and a broken wrist, respectively), and neither one of us was able to get down there to help our team.
So not a close call on my end – I would have given just about anything, within reason, to get down there and score a few points for my team, even if I did not finish as an individual place-winner.
I'd bet good $$ that Aaron felt/feels the same way.
This – a team title – would have meant much more to me than if I had won an individual title, yet my team had finished as a mere also-ran.
To this day (33 years later, yikes), this continues to haunt me.
Of course my feelings are likely impacted by the fact that this was as close as our coach – my dad – ever came to winning the team title.
(He finished second a # of times, at different schools, but never got the cigar.)



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Discussion Topic: National Duals
J.P. Barner added to this discussion on January 25, 2016

Is it confirmed that PSU is participating this year? Cael hasn't in the past, correct - for much the same reasons expressed here?

If so, it will be interesting to see if he fields his full lineup for all the matches.

Hope it's televised.



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Discussion Topic: National Duals
Jack Muni added to this discussion on January 25, 2016

Will Snyder be wrestling in that tournament for OSU?



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Discussion Topic: National Duals
Ben Golden added to this discussion on January 25, 2016

National Duals is a one-match event this year. Not even worth calling that name, in my opinion. More of a "Big Ten Challenge."

PSU is participating.



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Discussion Topic: National Duals
Dwight LeRoy added to this discussion on January 26, 2016

Quote from Pat Altvater's post:

"

Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:

"
National Duals--Bucks should send a lineup of backups and just get home in one piece. It might have actually helped team last year to lose first round. No one needs to wrestle 4-5 matches two weeks before Big Tens."



Am I old-fashioned, or is it wrong to believe that every team and coach should give their ultimate effort for every competition? - You'll never hear Urban (or Woody, or Earle) say that a given game isn't important to win!

JUST MY OPINION!"



I agree with you Pat 110%. Sending backups, I hope that comment was with a hint of sarcasm, lol.



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