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Discussion Topic: Michigan State Open
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on November 16, 2015

Just to be contrary--
Hunter was 6th as a true frosh
Cam Tessari finished 4th....so did J.D. Bergman

It can be done. But most talented frosh are still less likely to AA than if they wait a year.



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Discussion Topic: Michigan State Open
Doug Brandt added to this discussion on November 16, 2015

Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:

"Just to be contrary--
Hunter was 6th as a true frosh
Cam Tessari finished 4th....so did J.D. Bergman

It can be done. But most talented frosh are still less likely to AA than if they wait a year."



Hank, J.D. finished 3rd as a true freshman. Lost the first in OT; won the next seven.



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Discussion Topic: Michigan State Open
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on November 16, 2015

Doug and Hank - J.D. lost in the first round the newly year too. Only that year he won 6 straight, and finished 4th.



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Discussion Topic: Michigan State Open
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on November 16, 2015

You guys get the gist ;)

But J.D. deserves to have his career recounted accurately.



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Discussion Topic: Michigan State Open
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on November 16, 2015

Certainly do get it. AAing is an uphill climb. Regardless of class. Freshmen are at the steepest part of the mountain.



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Discussion Topic: Michigan State Open
Steve Durose added to this discussion on November 16, 2015

Quote from Dwight LeRoy's post:

"

Quote from Ethan Moore's post:

"Why does Martin need to RS? What value does that serve?

Moore, on the other hand, could improve substantially from a RS year.

My two cents - Let Mark wrestle. He can win matches in NYC."



Moore,
Sometimes it's not about NCAA Championship point value as much as it is about what a wrestler has done for the team up to this point. Again, I'm asking the question.

Teel,
It's still early in the season and I have complete confidence that Moore will improve on his performance.

Everyone says that Myles Martin is ready and he may very well be but to make that determination based on a couple of open events seems premature to me. Now if Myles pulled off a Bo Nickal type performance, well, who can debate that result. I'm going to sit back and wait until the first of the year and see how the chips fall."



Dwight,
You seem to have interpreted Moore's question as "What good does it do the team for MarMar to redshirt?" I interpreted it as "What is the benefit to MarMar or the team for him to redshirt? Who benefits and why?"
Does anyone know why Martin wants to redshirt as a senior?



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Discussion Topic: Michigan State Open
Dwight LeRoy added to this discussion on November 17, 2015

Quote from Steve Durose's post:

"
Dwight,
You seem to have interpreted Moore's question as "What good does it do the team for MarMar to redshirt?" I interpreted it as "What is the benefit to MarMar or the team for him to redshirt? Who benefits and why?"
Does anyone know why Martin wants to redshirt as a senior?"



Both interpretations means the same to me. Maybe it's my simplistic thinking.

I don't have a clue why Martin wants to redshirt but at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter to me his reason. I've read past comments about all the weight cutting, injury and etc that Mark Martin has went through while tOSU, doesn't any of his sacrifice warrant a redshirt season?

A Lot if not most student athletes seek a redshirt year sometime in their collegiate career and nothing's wrong with that.

I looked at the lineup and noticed that all the starters minus Martin has had a redshirt year and found that interesting. Synder is obviously an exception to the rule. It's easy to throw out comments like "benefits and why" when you're on the outside looking in. Maybe Mark Martin and Tom Ryan have a personality issue or something else, I don't know, pure speculation.

The following is probably not going to be a popular comment but why did Micah Jordan redshirt last year when Hunter Stieber was clearly not healthy? Micah had the same type of resume as Myles Martin coming out of HS and a lot of people think Myles is ready to go. Everybody and their mother knew Hunter wasn't 110% and they wrestled him anyway and RS Micah. Yes, I know that Hunter has a fighters heart and wanted to compete. Yes, I know that Hunter had already used a RS year but what about putting out the best team possible quote that is thrown out all the time.



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Discussion Topic: Michigan State Open
Ethan Moore added to this discussion on November 17, 2015

Dwight - love your perspective and willingness to ask tough questions, a welcome addition. Valid points raised.

I also love that people are referring to me as 'Moore'.



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Discussion Topic: Michigan State Open
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on November 17, 2015

Dwight: From a fan's perspective, none of us knew the extent of Hunter's injuries last season. But he had redshirted the previous year so he didn't have one available. Knowing what we now know, however, there is no doubt that starting Micah at 149 would have been a sensible alternative. Once again, however, we are not privy to any discussions/agreements that may nor may not have existed between Micah (and perhaps his Dad) and the staff. In theory, no such agreements ever exist. But if Jeff Jordan--the most important coach in Ohio at the moment (arguably)--had wanted his son to redshirt, I'm sure that would have been an important consideration.

Agree with the sentiment of others that your fresh perspectives provide great grist for discussion.



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Discussion Topic: Michigan State Open
Doug Brandt added to this discussion on November 17, 2015

J.D. Bergman, for the record:

2004 (True Freshman, 197): 3rd. Lost in first round and won seven straight.

2005: 197: DNP. Lost in first round; won one in consis.

2006: Redshirt. Don't remember why.

2007: 197: 4th. As pointed out by Mark, he lost in first round; won 6 in consis, with 3 falls.

2008: 285: 2nd to Dustin Fox. 4-2 SV2.

Three-time All-American.



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Discussion Topic: Michigan State Open
Gregory Martin added to this discussion on November 17, 2015

I realize many of you don't know me personally in fact most don't but I'm a realist and I speak my mind and I love Coach Ryan but he's knows that's what and who I am as well I realize things in life change all the time but I will give my perspective to enlighten you on where my thoughts come from as far as my son because I can't speak for others but I can speak for him When Myles was getting recruited he fell in love with Ohio State for several reasons and At about the same time he was being recruited Brandon Slay presented him with the opportunity to come train at the Olympic training center such as Kyle did his senior year Through the recruitment process we discussed red shirting on several occasions and trust me that was a big selling point to me and it was one of the reasons our family declined to send Myles to the OTC and let him finish up Highschool at his Highschool I won't say at home because he went to a boarding prep school so he still was away Now if we knew he was going to be expected to wrestle right away our thinking would probably have been a little different and we may have told him to do what Kyle did because at least he would be training with grown men His last year in Highschool were not faced with many challenges in the practice room or in competition but I won't say it was a complete waste because his HS coaches did what they could but I believe you get the point I believe Kyle winning worlds has a lot to do with looking at things differently as far as the line up but every man wants what's best for their kid and I'm no different No I'm not Mr Jordan but I love my son just as much as he loves his boys and I realize this is Myles 1st real year of getting pushed in the practice room and he was never afforded the training opportunities many of the top kids have gotten so for me it's not a surprise of the jumps he's making I knew it would be the case When he started receiving top notch coaching and training partners like he is Many say he's ready but I still believe he should red shirt My question would be ready for what? He has lofty goals just like anyone else and I believe red shirting is the best way to reach those goal at this point



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Discussion Topic: Michigan State Open
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on November 17, 2015

The reason people believe he should red-shirt is because he should. It's the right thing for him, period. I can't believe this is still a discussion. You're trading this year for a fifth year. Is there anyone who doesn't think Martin (both of them, frankly) won't be better their fifth year then they are now? With Mark it's a little more grey, but with the tru-frosh it's a no-brainer.

If Logan Stieber doesn't red-shirt he's not a 4Xer. If Colt Sponseller red-shirts he's a 2X AA and a likely finalists. What might've Lance Palmer done with a fifth year? David Taylor might not have All Americaned as a true freshman...and his senior season would've been the loss to Dake. Watch Nolf and Nickal this year. Remember Tomesello and Jordan last year. This argument has already been won. Do what's right for the kid and give him a year to learn, build his body and get used to college life.



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Discussion Topic: Michigan State Open
Ben Golden added to this discussion on November 17, 2015

Gregory,

I understand what you're saying here. In light of all that, I hope Myles redshirts and has the opportunity to be the best he can in college. If he doesn't, everything will still be ok. College comes and goes. Injuries can happen that make you wish you had that redshirt later. What will the future bring?

Michael: I totally agree that the way you describe should be the norm. On the other hand, there are obviously exceptions, and I think you're making some unfair assumptions to make your point. (Who can say Logan couldn't have won his frosh year? All we know is he had one bad weekend. I think it is VERY likely that Taylor would have AA'd his true frosh year--he probably would have wrestled at 149 instead of 157 if he'd been competing.) I think this becomes a tougher decision when you have shot at winning a team NCAA title, which is the case for OSU this year now that Nevills is likely out for the season.



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Discussion Topic: Michigan State Open
Dwight LeRoy added to this discussion on November 17, 2015

We don't know if Logan would've AA'd during his true freshman year but we do know that the odds of him being a 4x NCAA Champ would've decreased significantly. The 2011 bracket with Oliver, Hochstrasser, Graff, Long, & Sentes was a tougher bracket than the 2012 one with Logan, Oliver, Ramos, Dardanes & Carter, imo. In 2011, Ramos didn't even place and the following year, 2012 he went from DNP to 3rd place, losing to Logan by 2. 2011 Carter DNP, 2012 5th place.

The Taylor comparison is interesting because he wouldn't have wrestled 149# so seems irrelevant. He wrestled 157# during his redshirt season.



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Discussion Topic: Michigan State Open
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on November 17, 2015

Ben...Your point about David Taylor is fair. Down a weigh he may have AAed, but it's moot point because I don't think he couldn't have started for Penn State at 149. Molinaro was there and would take 5th that year. That was Metcalf/Palmer, so I think the finals and real contention were probably not in the cards either. That's why he was red-shirted and look how well that turned out.

With regard to Stieber...with all due respect, by tourney time, no one was beating Anthony Robles.

The team race gets a little more complicated. I bet I'm outside the bell curve on this one, but I'm not sure how I feel about asking a freshman to sacrifice his goals for a shot at team contention? I've always been a "wrestling is an individual sport" guy. It certainly has team aspects, but I've always felt that was more about relationships and the way teammates push each other not team dual meet wins and tourney championships. When a coach recruits a kid, when he goes into his home and sits in the living room and tells his parents "we'll take care of your boy. We've got his best interests at heart", you've got to honor that. Wrestlers want to be on the mat, they don't complain. Any freshman would jump at the chance to go out there and show The Big Ten what they're made of, but it's a parent's and a coach's job to do right by the kid...championship be damned.



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