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Discussion Topic: All Star Rules
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on November 3, 2015
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Quote from Brady Hiatt's post:
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"Wrestling coaches need to get off their rears, promote their sport in their school, recruit in their hallways, and get kids out. It is difficult but it absolute can be done.
Reduce weights, no thanks."
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I agree with the first part, but would like to see an odd number of weight classes. Tie breaker is simple. ...and that (simplicity) is something our sport could use more of.
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Discussion Topic: All Star Rules
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on November 3, 2015
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Brady: I agree with you in spirit but we're dealing with reality. As family fragmentation continues, it becomes increasingly difficult for schools to come close to filling out lineups.
I'd also argue that wrestling would be better as a club sport than high school. There are too many weak programs that need to be part of better organizations.
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Discussion Topic: All Star Rules
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on November 3, 2015
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I haven't posted in a while, but this caught my eye.
I understand wanting to change the ratio of points between takedowns and escapes, but I feel like the way to do that is to eliminate the intentional escape point...not to make takedowns worth three. Call me a purest, but it's wrestling, takedowns are worth two.
While I agree in principle that you shouldn't get a riding time point without turning your opponent, I feel like that would negate the need for the point altogether. let's face it, if you turn your opponent, you probably don't really need the riding time point. I don't have any stats in front of me, but I bet the percentage of bouts that have been won or even sent into overtime because of a riding time point that was awarded when the wrestler actually turned his opponent is minuscule. Either take away the point entirely or leave it as it is.
I've always been one of those, "if in ain't broke, don't fix it people", and I've never considered wrestling broken. If I was going to change one thing, it would be a strict fleeing the mat call. Basically a push out rule with some small tweaks.
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Discussion Topic: All Star Rules
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on November 3, 2015
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Michael! Welcom back!
I should have stated that first - no change first. But if there is to be a change, my previous post would be it.
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Discussion Topic: All Star Rules
Steve Lester added to this discussion on November 3, 2015
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I was more afraid of Issue 3 passing than a push out rule being implemented.
Shouldn't have worried.
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Discussion Topic: All Star Rules
Curt Heinrichs added to this discussion on November 4, 2015
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I agree with leaving the riding point as it is. There is a certain skill required to ride an opponent. If a wrestler is only good at takedowns, they can win a match with continuous takedowns. If a wrestler's strength lies in top control, they should be rewarded for that as well.
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Discussion Topic: All Star Rules
Bruce Andrews added to this discussion on November 4, 2015
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Quote from Curt Heinrichs's post:
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"I agree with leaving the riding point as it is. There is a certain skill required to ride an opponent. If a wrestler is only good at takedowns, they can win a match with continuous takedowns. If a wrestler's strength lies in top control, they should be rewarded for that as well."
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+1
There are some guys that are very tough to ride. I was always grateful for the riding time point when it was a tight match and I had a heck of a time keeping the other wrestler down.
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Discussion Topic: All Star Rules
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on November 4, 2015
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Mike--watch some of the all star matches. I thought 3 pt TD was a lousy idea til I saw it in action.
Riding time institutionalizes stalling. I'm sick of seeing a spiral/claw ride that prevents bottom from getting out but fails to break him flat. Same for guys using legs to take time off clock as opposed to scoring.
College wrestling needs more action. Riding for its own sake--as opposed to scoring from top--adds nothing to a match.
Back to 3 pt TD. TD's require the most skill and work. Making them more valuable is good.
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Discussion Topic: All Star Rules
Bruce Andrews added to this discussion on November 4, 2015
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It seems like many posters are concerned about the entertainment value of wrestling and how it is perceived by the fans. I have trouble with that mode of thinking. To me it is a slippery slope, where we adjust the rules based on perceived visual excitement, rather than how difficult it is for the wrestler to do the particular task. It seems like we could, in the long run, end up with something that is more akin to pro rasslin, rather than the pure sport of wrestling.
There are things that are difficult to do in wrestling and it seems that the point system was designed to reward wrestlers for accomplishing those difficult things, such as achieving a takedown; reversing or escaping from the top wrestler; riding or turning the bottom wrestler. These are all achievements that require skill, strength and determination. I don't think we should stop rewarding wrestlers for their ability to do difficult things.
That being said, there are some rides which are very difficult to escape from (figure 4 on the leg or both boots in) which provide little opportunity to achieve a near-fall position. I think those positions should be terminated fairly quickly by the referee and the wrestlers should be reset.
Bruce
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Discussion Topic: All Star Rules
Ryan Mitchell added to this discussion on November 4, 2015
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Quote from Dan Strope's post:
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"I am also in the minority and don't like the 3 point takedown. I really don't think making a takedown worth more than a two second near fall exposure is fair.
We can play endless scenarios on scoring situations but how about this one. You get a first and second period takedown for a 6-0 lead. I put you down in the third. I dominate you from the top position by riding you for 2:00 plus I turn you twice for a 3 second count. You win 6-5 despite me earning two sets near fall and holding you down for 2:00. What's next a tech fall being worth 6 and a pin worth 4?"
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Maybe my assumptions and math are wrong, (Wrestler A 2-3pt TDs= 6 and Wrestler B 2-2pt NF and 1 pt RT =5) but in that scenario, you would have gotten no escapes, which means you were ridden for some period of time, negating some/much/all of your RT advantage.
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Discussion Topic: All Star Rules
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on November 4, 2015
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Ryan: Both TDs were at the end of the periods. Wrestler A had been playing the edge the whole match. A slew of restarts. Then, with less than 20 seconds to go in each period (as few as 12 seconds with the second takedown) wrestler A struck.
TWO! Er, THREEEEE!!!
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Discussion Topic: All Star Rules
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on November 4, 2015
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Hank -- I don't think it is a a matter of only being in opinion and not reality. There is a simple formula that will work in getting out more kids and it works all the time -- problem is that it requires A LOT of work and A HUGE sacrifice of time that many just don't want to make. I've talked to numerous coaches that have complained about low numbers (consistently over the years) and yet they aren't willing to put in that work over the YEARS it takes to truly build a program. Families fragmented in almost every city/suburb/town/village but some do well in getting kids out and some don't. Almost all of those that do well in getting kids out have a common denominator -- just need to find out what it is.
As for the All-Star Rules, if people are wanting more action (which isn't necessarily a bad thing because it means guys are really getting after it -not just hanging out), than these changes are good. These changes are also, IMHO, a move towards FS.
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Discussion Topic: All Star Rules
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on November 4, 2015
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Brady: I hear you loud and clear and for the most part agree. I'd point out, however, that some coaches try really hard to do good work in difficult situations. When I coached, there were always a few guys doing great work in city of Cleveland schools. Those were very hard places to get kids out, keep them eligible and teach them wrestling. Most of the kids had never done it prior to high school. As I recall, Glenville practiced in the hallway.
The late Gene Gibbons, even in his late 60's, was one guy who managed to do it at John Marshall. Jay Hunt at Collinwood was another. Greg Dotson at Glenville. Ron Alexander at Benedictine (not a public but the administration did not care about wrestling). I'm sure I'm missing a few. I had tremendous admiration for these guys because they worked their butts off just to be average or below.
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Discussion Topic: All Star Rules
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on November 5, 2015
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Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
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"I had tremendous admiration for these guys because they worked their butts off just to be average or below."
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But to those kids they coached, they were far greater than that -- and reality says that is far far more important than on-the-mat success.
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Discussion Topic: All Star Rules
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on November 6, 2015
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