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Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Lou Demas added to this discussion on September 21, 2015
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Brady,
I don't think NCAA really cares what happens to Wrestling as evidenced by the shutting down of so many college programs.
Why do we care about wrestling? We care about wrestling because one styles more exciting than the other, We Care mainly about wrestling because we know about the values and work ethic it will instill in our children and our children's children. All of us never want that to go away!
Right now our Sport is being attacked at the national level and international level. If I thought the rest of the world would switch to folk style wrestling I would be on here advocating that's what we do.That's not going to happen.
Sure I hate the fact that the Russians and the Iranians came in first and second this year at the World Championships and the Russians always outperform us in general.it's like saying we lost Michigan State then Michigan and took 7th in the NCAA's and we almost always lose to Michigan.More importantly though we have to keep our sport relevant we have to create rock stars for these kids to look up to we have to generate a fan base and have to have fans that span from beginning to the end of our athletes careers.
One of the criterias for keeping a sport in the Olympics is participation.Let's give these kids heroes. right now every youth wrestler should want to Kyle Snyder poster in his bedroom but we have two systems of wrestling and coaches out there who don't even want there wrestlers wrestling freestyle or Greco in off season.
To make matters worse in the folkstyle vs. Olympic style American way.We many folkstyle enthusiast say , they should just go freestyle or Greco and for go the opportunity the folkstyle wrestlers have to pick a college than may have a degree programs they may want.They should have to sacrifice more to represent our country.
To me both folkstyle and the Olympic style have their problems, bad referees and not enough action but you should all go themat.com look at the forms and you will see the same complaints about wrestling in high school college and international. Wrestlers and wrestling fans complain that's what they do.
I just want wrestling to thrive and I want the wrestlers who are willing to sacrifice so much of their life to the sport to be taken care of by us in the way they deserve!
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Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Doug Brandt added to this discussion on September 21, 2015
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I just typed a long reply, hit the wrong button, lost everything.
To Lou:
We got 2 golds and a bronze in 8 weight classes. To me, that's pretty damn good. With Tervel, it's very likely we would have medaled in half of the classes.
I wonder how many teams who placed higher than the US would have loved to have had those gold medals, rather than a bunch of 7th places?
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Last edited by Doug Brandt on September 22, 2015; edited 1 time in total
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Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on September 21, 2015
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Quote from Lou Demas's post:
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"Brady,
I don't think NCAA really cares what happens to Wrestling as evidenced by the shutting down of so many college programs. "
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Title IX not NCAA idea -- but agree they are really fighting it either.
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Quote from Lou Demas's post:
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"Sure I hate the fact that the Russians and the Iranians came in first and second this year at the World Championships and the Russians always outperform us in general. It's like saying we lost Michigan State then Michigan and took 7th in the NCAA's and we almost always lose to Michigan."
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Almost had me here. Almost. I enjoy the NCAA season more - way more visible for us here is a major reason. If you LOVE LOVE international styles of wrestling, how often do we get to watch competitions? Once. Twice? And it's basically never in Ohio (on Senior level). You'll NEVER, ever, ever build a fan base that way.
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Quote from Lou Demas's post:
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"...and coaches out there who don't even want there wrestlers wrestling freestyle or Greco in off season."
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Then they are idiots.
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Quote from Lou Demas's post:
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"Wrestlers and wrestling fans complain that's what they do."
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It's not just them. Every sport does this.
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Quote from Lou Demas's post:
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"I just want wrestling to thrive and I want the wrestlers who are willing to sacrifice so much of their life to the sport to be taken care of by us in the way they deserve!"
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On this we agree.
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Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Lou Demas added to this discussion on September 24, 2015
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Quote from Doug Brandt's post:
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"I just typed a long reply,added them up with three million from Mongolia 4.4 million from Georgia and so on to we got the 320 millionthat's pretty damn good. With Tervel, it's very likely we would have medaled in half of the classes.
I wonder how many teams who placed higher than the US would have loved to have had those gold medals, rather than a bunch of 7th places?"
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I look at this from an other angle. We are "The United States of America" we have 320 million citizens in the United States- Georgia a country smaller than South Carolina has only 4.4 million citizens took third,Mongolia with only three million citizens took fourth. I think they're happy with their accomplishments. Georgia had one gold and Mongolia had 2 silver medalist.
I say this puts an other check in the box of training exclusively in freestyle would better prepare our wrestlers for competing at the international level.
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Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Steve Lester added to this discussion on September 24, 2015
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Still wouldn't be an exact parallel. No brutal college (or high school for that matter) season to survive, whether competition is folk or free.
Is part of the reason that other countries are ahead of us the fact that we compete too much, from youth on up?
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Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Lou Demas added to this discussion on September 24, 2015
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Quote from Steve Lester's post:
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"Still wouldn't be an exact parallel. No brutal college (or high school for that matter) season to survive, whether competition is folk or free.
Is part of the reason that countries are ahead of us the fact that we compete too much, from youth on up?"
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I agree our College schedules are brutal, which are all in folkstye . Therefore our best athletes and wrestlers after having gone through a brutal college scheduled have to try to compete against the best in the world in an other style of wrestling. Doesn't make sense.
Ohio has approximately 11 million people and 40,000 square miles of land and I say we have a strong history of wrestling successfully in this country.
As compared to the country of Georgia has 4.4 million people and 27,000 square miles of land. Georgia tied us for third in the last Olympics and took 3rd at this world championships.
I'd like to think if we had our Ohio boys and young men train exclusively in freestyle and Greco we could field a team that could represent us at the international level and do just as well Georgia, if not better!
Numbers do matter out of all these countries that trained exclusively freestyle and Greco, Russia has the most amount of people and wins the most championships, has the most youngest winners and has the most who have won multiple World and Olympic titles. In fact some of the other countries top wrestlers actually come from Russia.
now I will grant you that Russia might have more wrestlers per capita but here again is the difference where are our wrestler sacrifice so much to continue to wrestle after college the Russian system is set up that most of these wrestlers know they're getting good jobs or government jobs when they're done.
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Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on September 24, 2015
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Anyone seen Ben Askren's graph???
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Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Steve Lester added to this discussion on September 24, 2015
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Does a move to the Georgia model calls for clubs rather than high school or college teams?
I've read criticisms (second hand, of course) that USA wrestlers, cadets and juniors, compete too much.
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Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on September 24, 2015
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Jordan Burroughs is in the midst of a run we haven't seen since the heyday of John Smith. Do we care? Yes. But is he a hero? How much more popular is he than Spencer Lee? Tougher questions to answer. Is it any wonder he can't garner a wider spotlight in the media when the wrestling community itself is torn as to what it values?
One thing we can't escape is the contradiction between wrestling a style in college that is significantly different than either international style. Then, we want our best collegians to represent us against the rest of the world. Predictably, most just aren't good enough.
I sell briskets and I'm very good at roasting them. But, I've never smoked a brisket. I understand the process. I know how to tell when it's done cooking. But while smoking and roasting are both modes of preparation, they're not the same at all. Some overlapping skills in each but a lot of different techniques too. If I suddenly started competing on the BBQ circuit, it would probably take me several years to catch up to guys who have been doing it a lot longer.
The Brisket analogy works. Are we smoking or roasting?
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Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Justin Hayes added to this discussion on September 25, 2015
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Guns, Germs, and Steel: Wrestling Edition. :)
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Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Lou Demas added to this discussion on September 25, 2015
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Quote from Steve Lester's post:
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"Does a move to the Georgia model calls for clubs rather than high school or college teams?
I've read criticisms (second hand, of course) that USA wrestlers, cadets and juniors, compete too much."
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If Wrestling keeps getting eliminated from school programs and then eliminated from the Olympics, we may have to use that model however. I don't think that would changed much in regards to the problems you point out of competing too much and over training.Right now a lot of kids are opting out of wrestling in middle school to wrestling club teams to get around the rules of how many times they can compete.
Not only would training and freestyle or Greco be better if we started with youth through college but adopting a system that promotes better technique as the Russian system does without over training their athletes would be a step in the right direction also.Their focus is more on technique and less live especially in the early developmental stage.
I see many coaches promote the basics as double, single,high crotch as compared to the Russians which focus on a techniques of how to wrestle for every position. Our wrestlers at an international level lack a certain amount of immunity to techniques that use everyday overseas. Both Henry Cejudo and Jamil Kelly touch upon this in interviews they did on flo.
What I've always thought was funny in the U.S is our thought processes on throwing compared to that of International wrestling.they understand how to wrestle from those positions when they need to
Where as many U.S wrestlers are instructed to stay out of those positions. When wrestler here can throw,people say they're strong,born with good hips or if he's darker than a suntan, he's athletic.
Mark, What is this graph you speak of?
Justin,funny but I think wer're the natives
Hank, your analogy was perfect but it made me hungry!
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Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Doug Brandt added to this discussion on September 28, 2015
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Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Lou Demas added to this discussion on September 29, 2015
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Thanks, Doug
So we see, Mongolia a country with approximate population of 3 million people if I remember right,had the largest gains of a + 11 practicing exclusively freestyle compared to that of the United States with 320 million people had a +3.
We are ranked 4th in those team standings Azerbaijan comes in third in the team standings with only 10 million people
Iran second,with only 77 million people
Russia first, with 144 million people
This is kind of like a division 2 then division 3 and a NIAA school being ranked ahead Ohio State in football
Also the way he did the team rankings is a little questionable.When you add up all the qualifiers with World Championship results can skew it a little bit.
for instance once a country has qualified at the World Championships he can't go to the last two qualifiers. How do you factor that in?
if you just average what we placed at the World Championships between those time periods we would average 5th
I myself like larger samplings, if we go back 15 years we would average six place at the World Championships.
This is really unacceptable for one of the largest most amd most affluent countries in the world.
These rankings do nothing to answer the question on how we handle a divided fan base, sure a lot of us on this forum will watch freestyle, Greco and folkstyle because we love wrestling! But there are still many fans out there who watching freestyle or Greco is like asking football fans to watch rugby.
I am still optimistic we will do better I think more youth wrestlers are focusing on freestyle and Greco and Flo Wrestling is doing a tremendous job promoting the sport. I just hope it's enough to save the sport.
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Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on September 29, 2015
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What's rugby?
Go Bengals! Go Browns!
ps: Another way to look at it is the USA finished among the top 7 countries in the world.
And that's against countries like these:
Georgia
Turkey
Ukraine
Uzbekistan
Cuba
Belarus
Kazakhstan
Japan
Mongolia
Bulgaria
India
N. Korea
Armenia
Kyrgyzstan (I didn't even know this was a country)
Romania
Moldova
Canada
Poland
Puerto Rico
Hungary
Germany
China
South Korea
Venezuela
who all participate in freestyle exclusively.
It would appear that folkstyle is not hurting us the way some make it sound it is.
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Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Lou Demas added to this discussion on September 29, 2015
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Mark,
You are using Army logic! In my Marine Corp, 7th is bad!
Rugby is a sport similar to football but with not that many fans and just got put into the Olympics Games in 2016.
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