|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Dan Strope added to this discussion on September 18, 2015
|
Bob,
I get the whole UWW argument but in the end the rules are the rules and each country plays by them. The politics are never going to go away but let's not kid ourselves and think it doesn't also exist in the NCAA or NFHS. How much influence or input do you think Davidson or Buffalo has with the NCAA? NFHS stripped Ohio of a voting position because OHSAA didn't bow to their weigh out directives.
10-0 scores are a result of a wrestler actually wrestling and trying to scoring points? Not really sure your point there. I am assuming that you think a 1-0 or 3-2 match is more exciting than somebody scoring 10 points. I guess it is a matter of preference but is a common fact that the lines at the concession stands start to get longer as the scores start to get lower.
Crowds? Short of the NCAA, Big Tens or a Super Dual between powerhouse programs like PSU, Iowa, OK St or OSU where are the crowds in folk? How many in attendance at the ACC,EIWA,EWL,MAC,PAC12 or Southern Conference Championships? Also empty with the best college wrestlers competing. You couldn't even find a webcast for most of those. As for attending Fargo and Vegas, I can't speak for anybody else but I chose to save money and watch on FLO. As I did for the National Schoolboy Duals and the National Cadet Duals.
I am not anti folk but we have got to figure out a way to make wrestling fun to watch again.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on September 18, 2015
|
10-0 results aren't always because a guy wrestles and tries to score points. In many cases, it's because a guy locks up an ankle lace (Akgul) or gets a trapped arm gut. A takedown and ONE move executed over and over again without release of hold ends a match. Howe tried one pinch headlock on Taylor, missed, got his arm trapped and like 15 seconds later, match was over by tech.
Folk could do this also. Lock up arm bar, turn for near fall, let back to belly, and do again without releasing hold. I'm not a fan, but it would increase scoring.
Is this exciting? For me, yes -- if it's an American vs. foreigner. Otherwise, not really.
These arguments against folk -- I can't remember them in 80's and 90's when we were winning more medals.
Despite all this, I liked competing in freestyle better - mainly because I didn't have to get off bottom.
I love folkstyle (and I do enjoy watching it far more than freestyle) - but tweeks can/should be made to be more exciting. But eliminating, no thanks. It wasn't folkstyle that caused Ramos, Metcalf, Herbert, Humphrey to lose. Folkstyle wasn't reason Iran didn't win any Gold medals? And wrestling is their national sport.
|
Last edited by Brady Hiatt on September 18, 2015; edited 3 times in total
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on September 18, 2015
|
Dan, u and Hank see things diffferently than i do, no big deal-- ive made my points, enough said by me.
good points Brady.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
John Joyce added to this discussion on September 18, 2015
|
Put me in the category that enjoys watching folkstyle over freestyle/Greco. I enjoy watching all the styles, but folkstyle is more entertaining to me.
Making blanket statements that either style is more exciting to watch is pointless. Not everyone finds the same thing exciting. I'd much rather watch a very close match in folkstyle vs. a tech fall in any style.
Sure we can do things to make folkstyle better, but the idea that it needs to go away so that a handful of people have a slightly higher chance of winning international competition is laughable. And I'm an example of a guy who coaches folkstyle and has no desire to coach freestyle, so the idea that coaches can just learn freestyle and coach that would eliminate a lot of very passionate people from this sport, IMO.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Tim McIntyre added to this discussion on September 18, 2015
|
It seems to me that if the rest of the world matters in what we do sporting wise then we should give up the NFL because to the rest of the world football is what we call soccer. Should we take up Rugby? How about Cricket instead of baseball?
Free and folk can exist together. hold 2 separate seasons one winter one spring do away with the no contact period for high school coaches have sanctioned state champs for free and greco.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Rex Holman added to this discussion on September 18, 2015
|
Just a thought. You don't need day after day of freestyle to be a World Champion. Kyle Snyder proves this. He is 19 years old. He has world class attacks to both sides and can stop most attacks dead in their tracks. That wins.
What you need is a World class offense and a world class defense. Quality counts in the context of winning. If you have a relative weakness that can be exploited, then it will manifest.
The problem lies in developing that offense and defense in sometimes very ambiguous and difficult times.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on September 18, 2015
|
|
Quote from Rex Holman's post:
|
|
"Just a thought. You don't need day after day of freestyle to be a World Champion. Kyle Snyder proves this. "
|
thank you Rex.
--------------------
TomM, "Free and folk can exist together. hold 2 separate seasons one winter one spring do away with the no contact period for high school coaches have sanctioned state champs for free and greco."
Tom, u expressed a wish, but i'm sure u realize thats not an option, could never be an option --neither the NCAA nor OHSAA would sanction a separate spring wrestling season following the winter wrestling season. We get one season only.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Tim McIntyre added to this discussion on September 18, 2015
|
|
Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
|
|
"
|
Quote from Rex Holman's post:
|
|
"Just a thought. You don't need day after day of freestyle to be a World Champion. Kyle Snyder proves this. "
|
u expressed a wish, but i'm sure u realize thats not an option, could never be an option --neither the NCAA nor OHSAA would sanction a separate spring wrestling season following the winter wrestling season. We get one season only."
|
Why not we essentially have that now its just sanctioned by usa wrestling and aaw and...... ect.
the top wrestlers wrestle year round anyways.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on September 18, 2015
|
"The problem lies in developing that offense and defense in sometimes very ambiguous and difficult times."
Rex: Can you explain this sentence?
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Roe Fox added to this discussion on September 19, 2015
|
This thread is the reason I enjoy this forum. And I have no answers.
However, each person's opinion is likely determined by what they think the point of wrestling is. In other words, what is the goal of a very individualized sport that is person on person with no kicking, punching or equipment to get in the way.
Is it simply to score more points? Obviously at the end of the day that wins the match in most sports. Does physical dominance of the opponent matter?
If the former then I imagine free is the preferred choice. Free keeps wrestlers on their feet, frequently neutralizing differences in strength. If the latter, folk certainly comes into play. Every time I consider the benefits of removing riding time in folk, I think of Coach Milkovich's essay. Riding an opponent, WHILE BEING FORCED TO TRY TO TURN HIM, is a form of dominance and success. So is getting out from bottom quickly and NOT letting the other wrestler dominate.
Metcalf is a prime example. Few were more dominant in folk. After watching his matches at World's, he looked maybe above average for that level of wrestling when he ought to be in his prime.
The other issue is the goal at this point in time to encourage the growth of wrestling. Folk likely won't do it. We can appreciate the utter supremacy of someone like Dake when he rides a beast like Molinaro for 6 1/2 minutes. The casual observer is getting popcorn.
I certainly think it is worth modifying folk. Keep the riding time but make them work, not ride (refs would hate that I imagine). I like the pushout rule because it encourages center wrestling and avoids letting certain wrestlers play the line.
On the issue of leaving college entirely if one has World level aspirations, Kyle Snyder just proved if you are good enough you can do both. What has full dedication to free achieved for Metcalf? He beats all Americans and few top echelon internationals.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on September 19, 2015
|
"make them work, not ride (refs would hate that I imagine)"
I would never say that we would hate it but the question comes to mind, how do you do that?
The rules would have to be structured in such a way as to encourage a wrestler to try and turn his opponent. Stalling calls are not the answer, IMO.
I will freely admit that I am not a fan of riding time. All that means is that for at least 1 minute, while wrestler A rides wrestler B, no stall call will ever be made. If an official made that call, the coach would come unglued. Besides, what would it be based on??
I guess, at least for me, it comes down to whether the wrestler is actively trying to turn the opponent (the way it is spelled out in the rule book) or is he just riding to reach an arbitrary goal of 1 minute? In HS we have a third option, the wrestler is clueless as to what to do next.
That takes me back to the original statement, "make them work, not ride", and how do you know the difference? Easy to say, not always easy to do.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Justin Hayes added to this discussion on September 19, 2015
|
I love wrestling. That is all.
Enjoyed the freestyle season, looking forward to the folkstyle season.
Let it be written, let it be so. :)
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Lou Demas added to this discussion on September 19, 2015
|
We all love wrestling but facts are facts they have eliminated many of our college wrestling programs.Every time they eliminate a College program people get on the forums talk about makeing rule changes to make our sport more exciteing. Yet many ( not all)folkstyle supporters get upset when FILA and now UWW are making rules changes to save the sport by trying to make it more exciting. Yet we all know that is part of the equation to save the sport of wrestling, why not be on the same page why not have our best wrestlers dominating on the world level making our sport more marketable by giving our youth giving more heroes and marketing them.Mark ,you posted on a high school wrestling forum about Kyle Snyder winning the World Championships,you felt the need to have to explain what a World Championship was so kids and adults would understand. That is a disconnect in our sport. Every wrestling fan should know what the World Championship is!
I like a lot of the idea's people have posted to come to some sort of compromise to bridge the gap between folkstyle and freestyle and make the sport more exciting.Look at the success Kyle Snyder, I would categorize him as a freestyle wrestler who could can wrestle folkstyle.I think most of the successful crossover from folkstyle to freestyle wrestlers where do the fact their style was more adaptable and crossed over better. not due to the fact that there are some wonderful coexistence between folkstyle and freestyle. the facts don't bear that out if you look at even the youngest most successful wrestlers in the world the majority of them came from Russia and the other majority of them all came from overseas had been trained exclusively in freestyle or Greco. (freestyle wrestlers often cross train in Greco but not vice versa overseas)there are a handful of successful young American wrestlers but saying folkstyle and freestyle can coexist to produced the best in the world as it is now, is like me shooting at a barn and then drawing a circle around the closest shot group and saying I'm a great shot.
Things that I think are positive-Brandon slay was at the NCAA's said there was a program set up that they can skip their first year of college without losing the eligibility to train exclusively at the OTC. ROTC's,the fact that they are getting more high school kids out to the OTC to train.Top youth wrestlers trainin exclusively in freestyle and Greco.
This kind of stuff gives me hope that we will do better internationally in the future but I still doesn't do enough to correct the problem of a dying sport.
We need market to the youth more and give them more heroes to look up by marketing them. In my opinion baseballs is boring but they have a large youth movement and the rules of baseball are pretty consistent. So they have a developed fanbase that understands the rules.our sport doesn't have that and we are not the NFL or National Baseball League. So we need to make the changes to keep our sport progressing in the right direction.
If I had it my way, middle school and high school wrestling would consist of 3, 2 minute periods of 1 freestyle period 1Greco period, third. Would be chosen by who was ever ahead in points after the first and second. I believe this would enable fans to understand both freestyle and Greco give more kids Options in the sport of Wrestling and grow the sport. Plus I would really like to see as make concerted effort to promote girls wrestling.I think in the future you could have a wrestling team a both male and females.
|
Last edited by Lou Demas on September 20, 2015; edited 4 times in total
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on September 19, 2015
|
ImreallynotsurewhattosaytothatentireparagraphandeventhoughitotallyunderstanditifinditdifficulttoreadeventhoughiamfullycapableofreadingthewordsandtakingthosewordsandformingsentencesallthewhilecomprehendingtheinformationbeingtransferredJustiniappreciatedyourcommentthoughasitooenjoyedthefreestyleandgrecoromanseasonbutnowilookforwardtothefolkstyleseasonandInsideTheCircle
Lou: :-D ;-) see you soon, brother.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Lou Demas added to this discussion on September 19, 2015
|
Mark,
My phone went goofy,have to fix it later!
basically,I'm right you're wrong
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
