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Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Deven Dittrich added to this discussion on September 17, 2015
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I think that our best hope is that the folkstyle rules gradually- over 15-20 years- transition toward something closer to "freestyle" as we know it. The difference between free and folk is the philosophical difference between "expose" and "control". The techniques are different, the mindset is different, and the physical skills required to excel are probably different too (but I'll leave that to someone with more knowledge of kinesiology).
A few items...
- Famed Christiansburg HS coach Darryl Weber recently had a blog entry that talked about how a wrestler's deficiencies on bottom are quick to be exposed when they first move up a level (i.e. jr high to high school to college). How much time of a US wrestler's training in their lifetime has been devoted to becoming competent from the bottom position? Additionally, how much time has been spent learning how to stay on top by keeping the bottom man down, how to ride, how to "control" the bottom wrestler? These skills probably help in some scramble situations in free, but imagine how much more efficient the wrestler would be in neutral if all that time had been spent on freestyle-based scrambling and technique?
- Not even touching on the fan-support side of it, one of the problems with switching to freestyle would be the much shallower pool of potential coaches qualified to coach the sport. Less coaches means less promotion and programs, which will lead to less wrestlers. One of the keys to PA's strong wrestling tradition is all of the well-qualified coaches that were churned out by the PSAC schools- Slippery Rock, Clarion, Edinboro, Lock Haven, Bloomsburg, Millersville, East Stroudsburg, California of PA, West Chester, et al- that had high quality wrestling programs while also focusing on producing teachers in the 50's, 60's, 70's and continuing through to today. If each of those PSAC schools graduated five senior wrestlers every year that went into coaching, that is 40-50 highly-qualified, energetic, young coaches going out and making a significant impact on a high school/jr high/youth program EVERY YEAR. It didn't take long before the rising tide raised all ships. There are so many less college wrestling programs now than there were 30 year ago, i can't imagine if a radical change in rules put an even bigger hit on interest in the sport and what it's long-term impact would be.
- Rule changes- like eliminating riding time, push-out rule, standing wrestlers back up if no action occuring- would be easy to implement now without a seismic shift in philosophy. With the introduction of a 4-point nearfall, it seems like they are trying to manufacture scoring without changing the rules to create more action. I believe that they are trying to create a better product but there is a reluctance to embrace too much change for fear of a backlash. I think they don't have enough faith in the core fan-base. We are with them- with this sport- IN SPITE OF the current rules, not because of them. Part of me likes the fact that sometimes the inferior opponent can win if they can employ the right defensive strategy and have the heart, resolve, and stubborn discipline to stick with it. But, ultimately, I prefer a set of rules that allows the superior wrestler to win with a score commensurate with the difference in abilities between the opponents. I don't want to watch 3-2, 4-3, 2-1 snoozefests that are decided by a cheap takedown on the edge of the mat or in the last seconds of a period by a wrestler who has been retreating for 1:50. Rules should be enforced in a way to create action, not to justify inactivity for 90% of the match.
- Until more wrestlers take the route that Aaron Pico and Henry Cejudo have taken- abandoning folkstyle for freestyle- our post-grad wrestlers will continue to play catch-up with the rest of the world. Kyle Snyder just showed what the benefit of a year at the OTC can have on a superstar with potential for greatness. But Kyle Snyder's success is also undoubtedly tied to college wrestling and his time at tOSU and at their RTC. If a wrestler wants to pursue Olympic/World glory and emphasizes success in that realm over success in NCAA wrestling, opportunities are available at RTC's and the OTC. But, I don't think any of us want to see Kyle Snyder, Mark Hall, Spencer Lee, et al abandon folkstyle to focus solely on freestyle success on a World and Olympic level. I think we all most certainly want to see them achieve this success, but not necessarily at the expense of us being able to watch them in 8-10 home duals and watching them on TV at a few away duals, conference, and NCAA championships.
I hate to sound pessimistic but I think we need to temper our expectations at success on a world level for our US senior men - two golds and a bronze is a good showing. The US women at least wrestle freestyle in college programs and many high school girls in US focus on free because of the lack of opportunities for girls in their high school programs. The USOEC in Northern Michigan is a great resource for our Greco men as an alternative to NCAA folkstyle wrestling. As for freestyle, I think we need to have more of our superstars spend a year at the OTC while in high school and go to schools with good RTC's that can get them to the next level.
Sorry for the long rant. Be thankful i didn't copy and paste a long email I've sent to a few state chairmen on ideas to improve freestyle participation and performance within their state....
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Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Jeff Streu added to this discussion on September 17, 2015
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Quote from Doug Brandt's post:
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"Lou, we may have finished 7th in freestyle, but the ranking system is pitiful. With a reasonable system, we are 2nd or 3rd in the world.
We actually had one of the best performances, with two golds and a bronze over the 8 weight classes. Russia, who won the team competition was the only other team to get two gold medals."
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Could someone please explain how the team scoring works at UWW tournaments? Thanks!
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Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Lou Demas added to this discussion on September 17, 2015
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If this was "The" Ohio State we were talking about placing 7th at the NCAA's, how many of you folkstyle enthusiast would be supporting Ohio state with the logic of it was the rules and the bracketing that we had a hard time Wrestling under. They all wrestle under the same rules and sometimes you get a good bracket and sometimes you don't. Russia has won something like 40 World titles with rule changes and the blind draw. We have won 7 Iran has won 6.If you even go to the medal count of this world championships you will see most of them were from the former Soviet countries or Soviet block countries. we had some great individual results but as a team I find it hard to believe people still think we did good!
One guy posted on themat.com forum that we're Americans we go by the metric system and we drive on the right side of the road.I think he should be reminded the reason we're Americans is because when we fought the using unconventional tactics that he British wouldn't employ like guerrilla warfare.if we would have fought every battle against the British as a stand-up battle we would still be the colonies.
the other argument people still want to cling to his grappling is just grappling. if I became head coach of a school in Ohio and I was teaching the gut wrenches and lifts and how to fight a gut wrench in a lift during the season there would be Wrestling dads asking for me to be fired immediately.I've got in an argument on threads because of trying to suggest we teach kids techniques that cross over into both folkstyle and freestyle.I've literally had a Coach tell me my problem is I'm training kids to be Olympians whereas their training kids to be state champions and those moves don't work in folk style they only work in the Olympics.With that logic we should send our high school kids the Olympics because apparently those moves don't work at the highest levels against our high school wrestling. But isn't grappling just grappling,they say! take judo and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu they have many of the same throws and submissions they both wear a Gi but their focus on their training in relationship to the rules of their specific sports doesn't allow a bunch of Brazilian jiu-jitsu players the ability to go to an international event with the top level judo players and come out on top, they make catch a couple of top level judo guys but its not going to be the norm and vice versa bunch of Judo players are probably not going to go to an International Brazilian jiu-jitsu event and beat their best international Brazilian jiu-jitsu players. Again but isn't grappling just grappling?
Deven, like your post.I would hope a lot of the freestyle competitors who continue to wrestle with fill the void in the coaching positions or that the coaches who are coaching folkstyle currently would have the ability to learn how to adapt especially since they're always saying that grappling is just grappling, for a lot of them.I think that's a lot of the resistance to freestyle tis,especially in Greco, that there's a lack of understanding of how to Coach it.I do believe that many of these current high school coaches could adapt to freestyle or Greco if they had the desire and the drive.I also believe if they did make that commitment we would be the best in the world and all of our best wrestlers would not be going into international competitions at a deficit.
BTW .. if Hank and I are on total and complete agreement on a subject you do realize that means this should actually be the next Constitutional Amendment that freestyle replaces folk style
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Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on September 17, 2015
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Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Dan Strope added to this discussion on September 17, 2015
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When was the last time in a major national folkstyle championship that a heavyweight winner scored 10 points? Akgul won the world's 10-0 and the two bronze winners won 11-0 and 11-0. 32 points in three heavyweight placement matches!
Being a PA boy I never thought I would say it but we need to convert to Freestyle only. In 15 years of pushing kids to freestyle in the offseason I have had 1 that didn't prefer freestyle to folk after giving freestyle a chance. It simply has more action and scoring.
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Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Doug Brandt added to this discussion on September 17, 2015
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Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Lou Demas added to this discussion on September 18, 2015
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Doug,
That was most likely me you're talking about and I'm never worried about being singled out, I'm not that sensitive.
So I will recap for clarity.
Brits thought their way was the only way to fight, they lost we won! Now many think our folkstyle to freestyle system is the only way but we keep losing.
When one team keeps winning all the time don't just blame it on the rules and bracketing.
7th place is not good
Grappling is Grappling is like saying Judo is Jujitsu, just because they have many of the same techniques and they both use a Gi you can't just train primarily exclusively in one and then expect to succeed at the highest levels in the other.
I liked Deven's post
When Hank and I are on total agreement on any subject matter it should then become amended to the Constitution of the United States
I believe our high school coaches could learn to coach freestyle or Greco for that matter,if they were committed and had the desire.
Hope that provided some clarity and a little humor as intended
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Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Deven Dittrich added to this discussion on September 18, 2015
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Lou: I'm probably also guilty of the long paragraphs. Unfortunately, I have a tendency to ramble at times.
Lou, please don't think that I think our US men's freestylers are only the 7th best country in the world or that I am satisfied- as a fan- with that result. With the talent and number of wrestlers that we have in this country, we should be battling for medals at every weight, every year. I agree that our current folkstyle rules/systems is a serious handicap to the international success of our wrestlers as evidenced by only a few being able to overcome it. I do, however, think that we are on the right path with the emerging reliance on Regional Training Centers rather than the OTC as the primary training ground for freestyle/Greco. As valuable as the RTC's are though, I wonder how many of them are emphasizing the international styles in the off-season- not just April and May- rather than using them as a loophole to practice folk from after the US Open and/or WTT until October? If our top OTCs are only practicing freestyle with their college guys for a few weeks between the NCAA's and the US Open, how much good can that do? I know that the resident post-grads at the RTCs are there for freestyle but they're still not having the chance to focus on the style until they're 23. The Russian Sadulaev just won his second World title in dominating fashion at the ripe old age of 19 (alledgedly).
I think that there is hope as great wrestling minds are continuing to fight the good fight and trying to find answers/solutions. In the meantime, it's great to hear intelligent, thoughtful opinions from Lou, Bob, Hank, Doug, Mark, Ethan, et al.
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Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on September 18, 2015
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I coached Free and Greco. Not hard to pick up at all. There are less techniques. Practice isn't as grueling. Even the weight cutting is often easier. And the kids like it A LOT more. Less wear and tear on the competitors.
I get it. Folk is our style. But the rest of the world matters. We ignore it. And we're a second rate freestyle and greco nation as a result.
You want to see wrestling become more popular? Want to see it on TV? Want to have more kids do it because they're not driven away by the weight cutting and the injuries? Switch to the international styles. Start by amending college.
1) No riding time
2) Back on feet if neither wrestler can improve
3) Award more points for leg attack TD's that require greater skill.
4) Shorten the matches by a minute.
These are no brainers. No disrespect to Pat Milkovich and others...but their sport needs to evolve or go away completely. Otherwise, we will remain a country that wants to do well internationally, asks its competitors to sacrifice and train for years post-collegiate, yet insists that collegiate wrestling be our peak. Because there's no post-collegiate folkstyle.
Imagine if college basketball was played with an 8 ft hoop, no shot clock and 8 guys on a side. How would the players transition to the pros?
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Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Deven Dittrich added to this discussion on September 18, 2015
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I like it, Hank! Those are easy rule changes that could happen tomorrow without "changing" the sport too much.
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Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on September 18, 2015
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Quote from Dan Strope's post:
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"When was the last time in a major national folkstyle championship that a heavyweight winner scored 10 points? Akgul won the world's 10-0 and the two bronze winners won 11-0 and 11-0. 32 points in three heavyweight placement matches!"
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Dan,
these 10-0, something-0, scores are common in freestyle anymore, such an odd score-- in folk we'd call it a wipe out & a bad match, we'd say one guy quit, yet for championship freestyle matches this is a good score?
i'm no coach & no expert either, however i have a history of following free (& Greco) up close. Heres how the romance with free unravelled & finally ended.
Truth is i got bored with free going to Fargo almost every year starting about 1995 and suffering thru constant FILA major rule changes, that though we didnt like many of them but as Americans USAWR had NO say in-- no say at all. Grin & endure it. So i got sick of free frankly, the notorious ball grab was the final straw. (at that point i figuratively told FILA to grab my balls.)
Oh i'd go to Ohio Junior camp every year, still do that, all the coaches there know me. i show up on hot steamy July days when no one is there but a few parents. i watch the best wrestlers in ohio drill because i want to know who is the best, who are up & coming younger guys, its all wrestling, free & folk both take similar skills --
but love free? not me, i gave it a 20 year chance, in America we don't give our marriages that long a chance. The UWW, FILA, whoever they call themselves, i don't trust them. Certainly i don't want them making rules for American youth, high school & college wrestling. That would be ABSURD.
The freestyle skills, yes i appreciate the skills and the wrestlers & coaches who devote themselves, thats the lure to me-- i'm a writer, an observer, a fan, thats what i want to see-- but a fan of free over folk? no thank you.
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Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Dan Strope added to this discussion on September 18, 2015
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Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
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"
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Quote from Dan Strope's post:
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"When was the last time in a major national folkstyle championship that a heavyweight winner scored 10 points? Akgul won the world's 10-0 and the two bronze winners won 11-0 and 11-0. 32 points in three heavyweight placement matches!"
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Dan,
these 10-0, something-0, scores are common in freestyle anymore, such an odd score-- in folk we'd call it a wipe out & a bad match, we'd say one guy quit, yet for championship freestyle matches this is a good score?
i'm no coach & no expert either, however i have a history of following free (& Greco) up close. Heres how the romance with free unravelled & finally ended.
Truth is i got bored with free going to Fargo almost every year starting about 1995 and suffering thru constant FILA major rule changes, that though we didnt like many of them but as Americans USAWR had NO say in-- no say at all. Grin & endure it. So i got sick of free frankly, the notorious ball grab was the final straw. (at that point i figuratively told FILA to grab my balls.)
Oh i'd go to Ohio Junior camp every year, still do that, all the coaches there know me. i show up on hot steamy July days when no one is there but a few parents. i watch the best wrestlers in ohio drill because i want to know who is the best, who are up & coming younger guys, its all wrestling, free & folk both take similar skills --
but love free? not me, i gave it a 20 year chance, in America we don't give our marriages that long a chance. The UWW, FILA, whoever they call themselves, i don't trust them. Certainly i don't want them making rules for American youth, high school & college wrestling. That would be ABSURD.
The freestyle skills, yes i appreciate the skills and the wrestlers & coaches who devote themselves, thats the lure to me-- i'm a writer, an observer, a fan, thats what i want to see-- but a fan of free over folk? no thank you."
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I can't say I disagree with anything you have said. Constant rule changes have really hurt freestyle, but the same can be said of folk and how matches are now called. Compare two all time greats in Randy Lewis and Kyle Dake. Who is more fun to watch? Dake and his 4-1 wins or Randy Lewis? Lewis beat Avezedo 20-14 in the NCAA finals! Dake scored 24 TOTAL points in four NCAA finals.
Some will point to how stalling is now being or not being called as the biggest catalyst of this change but in truth it is a small part. Coaching has become better, kids are taught to "stay in position" and hand fight. Dave Taylor aside, most kids are now very conservative in their folk style matches. The first takedown in folk is golden because kids know they will get out and a 3 point lead is enormous in folk. A 3 point lead in freestyle is never safe and it adds to the excitement of the match.
To me it is ironic, that arguably the greatest college coach of all time has a bronze statue outside of Carver Hawkeye Arena and it depicts him working the ref for a stalling call. Is that what folk has become? Don't worry about scoring techniques, just keep position and pushing the pace to get a stalling call?
As far as the USA not being involved in rule changes. I am not so sure that is the case anymore. After all, the "new" two point takedown was said to favor the American style as was the change in the match periods and length to favor American conditioning. If the USA didn't have a say then somebody is looking out for us.
I agree with you in that youth and high school are the backbone of the sport, but I really don't see were changing a scoring system would change this fact. I agree with Ethan. Changing the rules at a young age will do little to change participation. On the first day of practice, it is all Latin to the youngsters anyway. I also agree with Hank. Coaches would adjust. What other choice would they have?
This I do know. Folk has become boring. There is too little action and too little scoring. Even the pin has become deemphasized with the creation of the tech fall. I do agree that both can still exist but something needs to be done with the folk rules to liven the sport again.
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Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on September 18, 2015
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Quote from Dan Strope's post:
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" This I do know. Folk has become boring. There is too little action and too little scoring. Even the pin has become deemphasized with the creation of the tech fall. I do agree that both can still exist but something needs to be done with the folk rules to liven the sport again."
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i didnt say anything that would stop folk from being tweaked to discourage stalling and reward aggression.
i'm for it.
We control that, that CAN happen -- the NCAA rules commitee, the NFHS -- but we have no control and little say with UWW, under any name traditionally a nepotism group, a Saudi prince looking for a job (kinda like Caroline Kennedy ambassador to Japan, our pols play that game too).
however if free so exciting how r we geting these common 10-0 scores in medal matches and why crowd not large in Vegas? Why stands 90% empty in Fargodome every summer, America's best young wrestlers are competing there?
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Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on September 18, 2015
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Bob: The crowds are not big because TOO FEW FANS CARE about non collegiate wrestling. It's not because the style isn't exciting.
We ask our best to represent our country against the rest of the world, sacrifice years of earnings potential, ask their families to sacrifice along with them....to compete in a style for which they are not properly trained.
RTC's are the beginning of the change. Next, the rules will get properly tweaked. Finally, we'll get a better sport.
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Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on September 18, 2015
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i just don't get your points Hank. imo, we don't completely revamp high school & college wrestling for a handful of guys going to Worlds once a year.
college wrestling is not preventing anyone from being great in freestyle-- after all u don't even have to go to college to wrestle, its your choice-- u can go from HS straight to the OTC Colorado and perfect your craft if u have the talent.
and guys like Metcalf and Herbert have been out of college for years, yes years of just freestyle day after day after day to perfect their craft. i don't get all the hand-wringing, plenty of opportunity, more RTCs than ever today.
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