|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on September 13, 2015
|
Mike: Thanks for offering your perspective.
Alex: I never said he shouldn't get his degree. In fact, I want him to come back to Ohio State and wrestle. But college wrestling is such a dry sport. Far too much of the strategy is designed to prevent your opponent from scoring rather than creating activity. I want to see the sport evolve. And I want to see Snyder compete in a sport that highlights his skill as opposed to diminishing it.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Doug Brandt added to this discussion on September 13, 2015
|
It's just the opposite for me: I find folkstyle the more exciting style of the two.
The rules are constantly changing in freestyle- to the point that there are those who have competed in freestyle, and who are doing presently doing commentary, who are not sure of the existing rules.
This is not to say that I wasn't excited when Jordan and Kyle won their titles. I was. I just find it more fun to watch the finals matches at the NCAA's.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Alex Creech added to this discussion on September 14, 2015
|
|
Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
|
|
"Mike: Thanks for offering your perspective.
Alex: I never said he shouldn't get his degree. In fact, I want him to come back to Ohio State and wrestle. But college wrestling is such a dry sport. Far too much of the strategy is designed to prevent your opponent from scoring rather than creating activity. I want to see the sport evolve. And I want to see Snyder compete in a sport that highlights his skill as opposed to diminishing it."
|
I agree that folk has become a little boring. I'm not sure if it's the rules\wrestlers or the coaches. There were 2 things watching the worlds that bugged me though. 1. Deciding who gets put on the clock seems even more arbitrary than stalling in college. 2. Ending a match by rolling a guy over 3 times in a row with a gut wrench or leg lace seems silly.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Ben Golden added to this discussion on September 14, 2015
|
Agreed on both counts, Alex. I'm not a fan of calling stalling/passivity. It's always going to be too arbitrary and, frankly, I think it's inauthentic to penalize boring. Instead, construct the rules to encourage action. Just penalizing boring is a lazy way to make rules.
I also would like to see freestyle incorporate a rule where you can only get one set of exposure points from a given turn unless you break your hold, kind of like in folkstyle. A match ending because a guy locks up a single trap arm gut or a tight leg lace doesn't do justice to wrestling, in my opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Dan Harris added to this discussion on September 14, 2015
|
I like the current freestyle rules. I think they create an environment where you better score because you can get scored on in a hurry. I think they are very close to being what they should be and would hesitate to change anything for fear of screwing it up.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on September 14, 2015
|
Truthfully, I would LOVE to have stalling go away.
From my standpoint, it is an awful call to make.
That said, there are plenty of times when it is occurring.
If it is not called, it puts the other guy in a situation where he simply can't do anything to improve.
The way it was put to me is that, to not make a call (or decision) is to make a call.
In a perfect world, everyone would wrestle 100% of the time and take me completely out of the picture. I could live with that.
Unless you have been there, you likely can not imagine the pressure of making a stall call with+/- 17000 people watching. You really WANT to get it right.
I try to remember that no matter what rules are in place, someone is making a judgement and someone is on the other side of that judgement.
When new rules are created, there is almost always an unintended consequence of that change or rule.
I wish I had the solution.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on September 14, 2015
|
Let's talk about everything wrong with folkstyle by discussing a single wrestler: Josh Demas.
Demas was an explosive wrestler with great stuff on his feet. But when he took the mat, he had to radically adjust his style to conform to college rules. As a result, he often appeared passive. Why? Because he couldn't risk taking a chance from neutral and having it not work out. Blow a shot, give up a TD and then you have to fight like heck to get out from bottom.
In top position, Demas was so obviously trying to hang on that it felt embarrassing. Grab an ankle, slip in a boot and take time off the clock. He wasn't really trying to score...he was trying to maintain advantage in a way that was acceptable to the officials and fit the silly rules of college wrestling. In my opinion, Demas deserved better than to be forced to subjugate his skill. But he had no choice. The rules are the rules.
In college wrestling top man top man is allowed to stall! We all know that most college wrestlers on top aren't trying to score back points...they're trying to take time off the clock and build up riding. It's so boring! Grab an ankle, slip in a boot, trap an arm, bottom guy work to free himself, bottom gets to his feet, top drops to a leg or lifts bottom and brings him back. It takes skill but it's not a skill we should be looking to develop. For every Logan Stieber, there are 20 guys like Demas who weren't built for top and have to try and figure out a way to hang on.
The recent folkstyle rule changes are as stupid as one would expect.. Instead of having a one point back exposure--which would at least reward top for doing something--we now have a four point turn. A four point turn is ridiculous. Now, a four point TD for back exposure...that would make sense!
Folk is stuck because of too many guys in authority want the sport to remain true to its roots. I coached folk, free and greco and the Olympic styles were a lot more fun for the kids and the coaches.
As long as we continue plodding forward with the same group of decision makers, the sport is stuck. Fortunately, my type of thinking will ultimately prevail (I think). It's just a question of when.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Doug Brandt added to this discussion on September 14, 2015
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on September 15, 2015
|
Hank: I see the problem as with wrestlers and less with wrestling.
However, in order to help with the issues you note above, wouldn't this also move things in the right direction: RT+1 is only awarded if NF (+2 or +3) are earned?
What incentive do I have to control my opponent from the top position if I'm not going to be awarded for it. Additionally, why would I not work to turn if accruing one minute of riding time, I receive an additional point?
Although I am for no change than any change, the only other change I would make is that upon a restart the top man can opt to go neutral with no point being awarded.
But that's just me.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Alex Creech added to this discussion on September 15, 2015
|
|
Quote from Mark Niemann's post:
|
|
"RT+1 is only awarded if NF (+2 or +3) are earned?
"
|
I see all kinds of clock issues with this. Does a wrestler still need to get 1 min of riding time? Do we bother with tracking riding time unless someone gets a turn? What if the opponent lowers my riding time below a minute but doesn't get a turn? Do I need to get a turn every time I start on top for riding time to count? or just once in the match?
I would like to see, if a guy on bottom gets to his feet and then the wrestlers go out of bounds on their feet, that's an escape.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Jim Kessen added to this discussion on September 15, 2015
|
I think riding time should only occur once a wrestle scores a TD,R or NF.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Doug Brandt added to this discussion on September 15, 2015
|
I thought some of you might get a kick out of what Randy Lewis wrote on his facebook page:
Mark Schultz just told about how I have the highest scoring gold medal match in history, which was 24-11, and the highest scoring NCAA finals match ever, which was 20-14 against fellow 1980 Olympian John Azevedo. I want to tell this story about my highest scoring match ever, which happened in the world championships in 1978. Like Kyle Snyder, I won the Jr. Worlds while in high school, and got 2nd in the NCAA's as a true freshman, both of us losing to an Iowa State wrestler, and like Kyle Snyder I made the world team as a 19 year old. However my 1st Sr. World tournament didn't work out quite as well as Kyle Snyder. My 1st world championships were in Mexico City in 1978, and I was cutting weight real hard to make 57 Kilos (125.5 lbs). My 1st match I won by fall over Mexico, the 2nd round I lost 18-10 to Tamiyama from Japan who would go on to win the worlds and then repeat his title in 1979. After making weight in the morning on the 2nd day, I wrestled Ouinbold from Mongolia who quite possibly had more WTF moves than Ricky Dellagatta.
He had so many throws and leg trips and everything else in his arsenal.
At the end of the 1st period, I was behind 16-4, I made a nice comeback in the 2nd period and closed the gap to 19-15. In the 3rd period I did a lot more fighting off my back and when the referee called the fall for Ouinbold in 8:59
looked over at the scoreboard and saw that the score was 30-16. Ouinbold won the bronze and also won an Olympic bronze in 1980. I wrestled him again in 1980 in Tibilissi and I was losing 9-2 at the end of the 1st period. we got in some great
flurries and I scored 15 points in one minute and then pinned him. Congrats to Kyle Snyder not only for winning his 1st sr. world title, but also for keeping all of his opponents under 30 points!
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on September 15, 2015
|
Alex: everything would stay the same as it is now as far as RT is concerned, but - much like scroring a TF in a dual meet* - the scorers wait until the match is over to move forward with any addition of a RT+1.
Did wrestler A ride his opponent for more than 1 minute than he was ridden? If so, did wrestler A get NF? If yes and yes, add 1 point. If no NF were awarded, no RT+1.
* 4 team points for a TF without NF; 5 team points with a set of NF.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Alex Creech added to this discussion on September 15, 2015
|
|
Quote from Mark Niemann's post:
|
|
"Alex: everything would stay the same as it is now as far as RT is concerned, but - much like scroring a TF in a dual meet* - the scorers wait until the match is over to move forward with any addition of a RT+1.
Did wrestler A ride his opponent for more than 1 minute than he was ridden? If so, did wrestler A get NF? If yes and yes, add 1 point. If no NF were awarded, no RT+1.
* 4 team points for a TF without NF; 5 team points with a set of NF."
|
I think it needs to be more than 1 point to really see an uptick in trying to turn someone. There's still the problem on the flip side, the guy that's not interested in turning his opponent, but only getting his opponents riding time below a minute.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Lou Demas added to this discussion on September 15, 2015
|
First, what Kyle Snyder did was amazing! if the Cleveland Cavaliers won a national title there would be a parade in the City.Sadly I don't think the Wrestling community as a whole does enough to give this accomplishment its due partly because of folkstyle. We are so caught up in folkstyle the majority of the time, accomplishes like this almost seems secondary to the folkstyle purist. We have a devided fans base with most people following a style of Wrestling that the rest of the world doesn't compete in.
We took 7th at World championship,we complain about the rules all but the rules of the same for everybody,other countries understand them so I suspect we should be able to understand them also.the major problem is we have to decide what we want to do or be content we're never going to be successful international level.we always point the anomalies and say look how good this wrestler did under folkstyle system or look at successful this one folkstyle move work internationally one time but consistently we're not winning international level. Russia's not saying let's train American freestyle most of the year and then will be dominant at the world level.
The system as it is sets up our future Olympians and World team members up for failure more than for success. the Wrestling community has to decide whether their content with that.Personally I hate it! I feel our athletes who sacrifice so much of their lives to continue Wrestling after college deserve far better than this.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
