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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on May 7, 2015
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Lou, you make interesting points --
but i must ask how old were u during height of Viet era, say late 1960s? Tet offensive was early 1969, body counts at their peak then. This is a friendly question, i'm just asking for a referance point, not a challenge intended. Just a referance point.
But im always interested if someone lived thru it, esp if it was a young man facing the draft lottery every month.
big Viet buildup began spring/summer of 1965, according to history channel we went from not many troops a year before to several hundred thousand troops by early 1966-- i was one of them, July 1965.
a person had to live the era to fully understand it, live it as an adult to see it all, it was alot to absorb. Not only Viet but civil rights struggles-- assassinations of MLK & Bobby Kennedy both in 1968--riots on the campuses and in cities. Even a riot at the Dem national convention and a US President LBJ effectively resigning in early 1969.
I came home to the chaos on campus at Ohio St U where i enrolled, so i got a very good view of many aspects of the era.
believe me Viet era change America BIG-time. i grad high school 1961 so i saw the before and after up close and personal. ...BobP
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Lou Demas added to this discussion on May 7, 2015
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Bob,
I am a 60's baby. I watched the hippie adults turn into yuppies! they went from share the wealth to driving BMW's.I gave historical dates to put it in context in relationship to prayer out of schools, Vietnam War and Roe vs Wade.
I do believe you are correct that the Vietnam era was a turning point.I just believe the cause was man trying to convince himself at he was just an animal. What destroys the family is Government that treats its citizens as animals because its citizens allow it. At one time you could pray in school and you couldn't get an abortion. Then you couldn't pray in school and you could get an abortion.Now euthanasia is the talk of the day. Psychologists and psychiatrists will say children need love in the sense of worth to develop into normal healthy productive adults . But when government and society put more of an emphasis on personal happiness and push an ideology that there is no God then how can there be love. if there is no love how can you have happy productive adults. If there is no God in all we are is meat puppets. What purpose does a meat puppet have to other than to make other meat puppets and make themselves happy. Nothing but eat shit and die for no matter how many other meat puppets there are, they are alone. I just don't see there world becoming a better place as we move towards that as our world view.
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on May 7, 2015
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#MeatPuppets
Point of note: I am not a meat puppet. Just saying.
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Shel Harper added to this discussion on May 8, 2015
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Mark. . .good question about the seeming contradiction between the two religion clauses of the First Amendment. My take, simplified, is this:
The Establishment Clause prohibits an official church, such as is suggested by the term "Christian nation" and evidenced bigtime by Islam.
The Free Exercise Clause gives us freedom to practice our religion but not to impose it. Freedom FROM religion is a partner of, and implied by, freedom OF religion. Otherwise, it seems to me that the non-religious are Constitutional lawbreakers.
This is the other of my top two favorite subjects. I'm still learning about both, and still puzzled by the timing of stall warnings.
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Mike Holman added to this discussion on May 8, 2015
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What Baltimore Needs
In any society, business, or organization, it is the people that count. Disciplined people make any society, business or organization successful. Good parenting plus a good education will produce disciplined people who are likely to succeed. Poor parenting and a poor education will produce people who are likely to fail. In Baltimore and other poor urban areas, poor parenting abounds. The Baltimore education system is a mess.
People need jobs. Jobs provide dignity. The most important criteria for any major business in selecting a location for a plant (such as Boeing did in South Carolina) is the human capital. Employers want disciplined people who can read and write and follow instructions. Baltimore’s human capital was on display during the riots and it got a failing grade. No major company is going to build a plant in Baltimore until Baltimore improves the value of its human capital. Baltimore can improve the value of its human capital by improving its education system and making good parenting the City’s number one priority.
Baltimore’s school system is failing even though Baltimore is second only to New York in per pupil spending among large cities. Money is not the problem. It is a people problem. Baltimore needs to gut its school system and replace it with a model that works. Use the Harlem Academy and other highly successful schools as a model, make the changes and do it now. No excuses. Establish a meritocracy and let nothing stand in the way of doing so. Every government organization, including the police, the DEA, the Veterans Administration, and the IRS, needs to be a meritocracy.
Baltimore’s leaders offer excuse after excuse. Not once did I hear them discuss how poor parenting is destroying Baltimore’s human capital. The Mayor, City Council, and every political, religious, and business leader should make good parenting a top priority. If you are a male and father a child, you take responsibility. You get a job, show up to work on time, work hard, support you family and be good father to your children. If you do not, the world comes down on your head. No excuses. None.
I’m old school. I don’t accept incompetence or liars. I don’t want to hear excuses. I don’t care about your race, your religion, or your sexual orientation. I want performance. You will treated fairly, but if you don’t shape up or you will ship out.
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on May 8, 2015
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M. Holman: Harlem Academy indeed. You've nailed it. We need a new public school model that works for kids growing up in dysfunction. Blaming schools--or continued increases in spending--won't work.
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Ben Golden added to this discussion on May 8, 2015
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Marlo Stanfield is NOT a man for this town!
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Pat Altvater added to this discussion on May 8, 2015
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You guys are making me think too hard, I'm getting a headache trying to digest all of this.
I think I'm going to invent a new video game entitled:
EAT SHIT AND DIE YOU MEAT PUPPETS!!!
Teenagers should love it!
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Lou Demas added to this discussion on May 11, 2015
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Pat,
If you developed a video game, I hope a small percentage would come my way.I would hate a long drawn out court battle over meat puppets being my intellectual property. Plus it will be nice to think that when I post with very little sleep,it paid off.
Mr. Holman
LIked your post and think education is part of the solution but how do you fix the family structure? Go back to Vietnam era again and you will notice a sharp rise in divorce rates also.
Mr. Bateman
Enjoyed reading your post and believed if more people study quantum physics they would find out just how shaky their foundation there is that there is absolutely no God. They would also find how much faith science requires.
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on May 11, 2015
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Quote from Lou Demas's post:
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" Go back to Vietnam era again and you will notice a sharp rise in divorce rates also. "
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......NOW your catching on Lou, keep digging theres ALOT more there in that mid to late 60s era.
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Steve Lester added to this discussion on May 12, 2015
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Kent State happened my senior year in high school. My draft number was 126. I remember in a social studies class (world history, maybe) we had a girl from Vietnam. In-class discussions would rage about how the USA didn't belong there, propping up a corrupt regime, that didn't do right by it's people. She was grateful that the US was in her country. Classmates would counter that she came from privilege and thus wasn't in position to understand her countrymen. Tears would come. Tough times; tough dialogue.
Bob, do you remember what some of the "black power" folks were alleging about the demographics of the US forces in Vietnam?
=====================================================
At any rate,
Behaviors are a result of attitudes which are a result of beliefs. Attitudes includes emotions. In this prescription, beliefs will include things that are known (ie-sun will come up), in addition to things THOUGHT to be known, but are really untrue.
Beliefs can be adopted in many different ways, for many different reasons. They can be a result of training, formal or informal. They can be a result of reasoning, sound or not. They can be a result of acute experiences, or chronic experiences, which can both be correctly or incorrectly interpreted.
And they can be influenced, at any age, but particularly in the young. Beliefs within a person can also change, quickly or over time.
I came up with these thoughts, when trying to explain racism in all of it's facets, but particularly the institutional variety. My conclusion was that racism is a result of training, subtle and not-so-subtle, and unsound reasoning. IT IS TAUGHT. But, beliefs are changing, however so slowly. For whatever that's worth.
I can't say how it appies to Baltimore other than my belief that institutional racism has had a massive effect in many places.
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on May 12, 2015
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Quote from Shel Harper's post:
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"...My take, simplified, is this:
The Establishment Clause prohibits an official church, such as is suggested by the term "Christian nation" and evidenced bigtime by Islam.
..."
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"Congress shall make no law regarding the establishment of religion..."
I am confused how you can, on the one hand, use it as a basis for removing prayer or God from schools, but then explain it as to why we can't have an official national religion. These two are not synonomous.
Moreover, is not a ban on prayer among the public square in violation of both elements of the first amendment? In that case, has Congress not "made a law regarding an establishment of religion" by stating one may not lead a prayer? Certainly it violates the "free exercise thereof" portion of the amendment, no?
Also, I believe this "Christian nation" mantra is a strawman. I would use the First Amendment as evidence. Why would a group of people (the vast majority theists) make their first order of business what it was?
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Quote from Shel Harper's post:
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"The Free Exercise Clause gives us freedom to practice our religion but not to impose it. Freedom FROM religion is a partner of, and implied by, freedom OF religion. Otherwise, it seems to me that the non-religious are Constitutional lawbreakers."
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This is not true at all. Non-religious are not mandated to pray or recognize God in anyway, shape, or form. And evidence of this is the fact that we have atheists living within the borders of the U.S..
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Shel Harper added to this discussion on May 12, 2015
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Mark. . .I think we're too far apart on this to get anywhere with anything less than page after page of back and forth, which would be cumbersome. I'd much rather have a face to face conversation, which would probably not finally resolve anything, but might be fun. I haven't met you but I think the wrestling banner at least makes us neighbors. If you're ever in Strongsville, stop at 17322 Otani Ct. If you call first, at 440-268-0676, we might have time to lay a red carpet. Claudia and I have a 4pm happy hour almost every day. Sometimes we have a guest or two. All who speak wrestling are especially welcome. (But not at the same time).
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on May 12, 2015
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This sounds like a reason for me to visit Hank's place!!! Woo-hoo...Corned beef, brisket, and/or a pickle spear!!!
I'll keep you informed. (Could take a while but I love the offer.)
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on May 12, 2015
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[quote="Steve Lester"]Kent State happened my senior year in high school. My draft number was 126.
Bob, do you remember what some of the "black power" folks were alleging about the demographics of the US forces in Vietnam? [quote]
Steve, u bring up the origins of 1960's "black power" --is interesting subject, to me anyway.
i gotta cringe when i hear a newbie on CNN talk about we need a "national conversation" on race, well we've been having one since i can ever remember, go back 60 years. Its not just a white thing, fact is in life sometimes decent people of different races just disagree.
i was a student at Ohio st when "black power" was the rage in late 60s, there was tension on campus. I recall actor Paul Newman coming to campus to speak for presedential candidate George McGovern, a shouting match broke out in Mershon auditorium between a fiery black student leader and a white student who didnt like his interrupting -- there was always tension even in the Student Union.
The Black Panthers, Nation of Islam and other black power groups took the spotlight from MLKs movement after MLK got the Voting Rights Act 1966 and Civil Rights Act 1965 signed into law by LBJ. MLK did the work over a decade. MLK taught non-violent, however some young blacks thought MLK had taken the movement as far as he could. And these other groups presented a more in-your-face sometimes violent attitude.
some small fringe radical groups were predominently white in fact such as SDS (Students for a Democratic Society) the "Weatherman" Wing. Many bombings, even bank robberies.
i did not percieve tension between black & white in Viet 65-66 however American cities were yet to riot & burn. Later attitudes would change i am sure when guys came over who'd seen cities burn and the black power movement take hold.
Viet forces disproportionately black? yes because more blacks comprised the infantry ---***AND college students got a military deferment, teachers got deferments, married men too -- of course all women deferred -- so there was plenty of picking & choosing by the Govt as to who was gonna serve and it wasnt about race imo but rather it was a CLASS thing.
Plenty of whites in Viet, plenty of whites on The Wall too. A bullet doesnt ask your color. ...s/BobP
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