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Discussion Topic: "Can u repeat the rule one more time please?"
Ben Golden added to this discussion on March 21, 2015

Quote from Justin Hayes's post:

"Playing Devil's Advocate:

If you were Realbuto's coach, would you have screamed "Bloody Murder!" because Andrassy didn't use the proper protocol (i.e. the flag) if they had changed the result?"



This sort of thing happens in plenty of matches! You were able to question and talk through the score even before video review/challenges existed.



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Discussion Topic: "Can u repeat the rule one more time please?"
Rex Holman added to this discussion on March 21, 2015

The coach has to be the advocate when the system fails. As mentioned the system fails infrequently but it does fail and you know that going in. With so much on the line you have to be prepared as a coach for advocacy. It is the NCAAs, Is your game as a coach at the highest level or are you just emotional. One coach can be a emotional but the other better be a poker player watching the nuances of the game play out and ready to act as necessary.

The poker player coach better be prepared for the types of mistakes that are made. I blame everyone but Ian. Ian was obviously fatigued and was not thinking straight. He was fatigued like that against Ness in the semis last year. You only have two advocates per corner to make sure that your wrestler gets a fair shake.

Do you think Bill Belichik is emotional or a poker player?

The system fails (not purposefully but because of human error)

A set of rules are in place to contest any discrepancy.

Lesson learned, don't leave the mat as a coach or competitor if something does not seem right. Argue and protest in any situation where there is confusion. Don't be afraid to make an ass out of yourself for your wrestler, as you might just be in the right. What is worse? To feel bad about making an ass of yourself or to let something get by you that was preventable.



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Discussion Topic: "Can u repeat the rule one more time please?"
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on March 21, 2015

Rex: In my opinion, you're on point. I feel badly for Ian but Coach Andrassy and his staff have got to know the protocol for this type of situation prior to the tournament.



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Discussion Topic: "Can u repeat the rule one more time please?"
Rex Holman added to this discussion on March 21, 2015

I got spun up about this quite a bit yesterday. He won the friggin match and it cost him the chance to wrestle for a NCAA title. It gets me sick to my stomach and blurry eyed when I think about the implications of it. Everyone talks about IMar being strong; well Ian Miller is just as strong from the positions that he engages. He can beat IMar. That whole situation sucks. I will probably harbor a grudge against Cornell as well as they took something that was not theirs to take. I don't like that stuff.



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Discussion Topic: "Can u repeat the rule one more time please?"
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on March 21, 2015

I thought about this yesterday when all of this was going down.
It sure seems like there is "blame" to go around on a lot of people but I wonder about something that I "think" would have fixed the issue before it became a problem.
It would appear as though the NCAA must still use paper bout sheets and pencils for scoring.
As we all know, you can not have a TD unless the wrestlers are neutral. You can not score a reversal or an escape unless there was a control situation. That part is not tough to understand.
What I wonder is, why is the NCAA not using one of the electronic programs? These are used in many of the larger HS events I do and they work amazingly well. The program knows that wrestler B can not score a TD unless the contestants are neutral. If they were in a control situation, there would have to be an escape before it will allow a TD. It simply will not allow the scoring to take place.
If this had been in use yesterday, the escape point could not have been missed. The scorekeeper would have known it right away.
There again, maybe I am over thinking this.



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Discussion Topic: "Can u repeat the rule one more time please?"
Mike Stann added to this discussion on March 21, 2015

Quote from Rex Holman's post:

"I got spun up about this quite a bit yesterday. He won the friggin match and it cost him the chance to wrestle for a NCAA title. It gets me sick to my stomach and blurry eyed when I think about the implications of it."



We all have seen the commercial where the basketball player tells his coach he touched the ball so it's the other team's ball. Wouldn't it have been great if our sport had been the one to make it happen in real life. It's my belief that in the long run the Cornell kid would be better served by doing the right thing. After all there are 20 kids who qualify for semis. There would have been only one like him.



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Discussion Topic: "Can u repeat the rule one more time please?"
Patrick Campbell added to this discussion on March 21, 2015

Quote from Rex Holman's post:

"I got spun up about this quite a bit yesterday. He won the friggin match and it cost him the chance to wrestle for a NCAA title. It gets me sick to my stomach and blurry eyed when I think about the implications of it. Everyone talks about IMar being strong; well Ian Miller is just as strong from the positions that he engages. He can beat IMar. That whole situation sucks. I will probably harbor a grudge against Cornell as well as they took something that was not theirs to take. I don't like that stuff."



Rex, I love your passion towards things! Certainly one of the things that put you at the top of the podium. And one of the few things we have in common. I can't even touch the rest of your traits.



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Discussion Topic: "Can u repeat the rule one more time please?"
Rex Holman added to this discussion on March 21, 2015

Mike-
I had the same thought. Do what is right and let wrestling be synonomous with character and integrity. It did not happen. It just further reinforces the reality of the world.

Pat-
Thanks for the compliment.

Jim-
Hopefully they adopt that system next year.

Mike Holman's take on it.

I saw and did not realize during match. If I had been a coach I might have realized it. Regardless, it was the wrong decision. There was no specific rule. The Committee had jurisdiction/authority to make a decision and made a decision that was incompetent. Dad



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Discussion Topic: "Can u repeat the rule one more time please?"
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on March 21, 2015

I guarantee Cornell's coaches knew score wasn't right. Ivy Leaguers can do math.



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Discussion Topic: "Can u repeat the rule one more time please?"
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on March 21, 2015

Quote from Brady Hiatt's post:

"I guarantee Cornell's coaches knew score wasn't right. Ivy Leaguers can do math."



There was a flurry where Ian escaped and Realbuto got another TD almost instantly. The 2 was signaled. The escape point wasn't. Coaches have got to know what's going on to avoid the exact situation that took place. At the first moment possible they need to get the refs attention and point it out. The match went into OT. Prior to OT, the Kent staff should have been yelling that a mistake took place. Raise your flag...yell at the ref...walk onto the middle of the mat...do whatever you have to do.

Mistakes happen. I feel terribly for Ian but he was let down by his coaches. That's how I see it.

Now...if they had pointed it out and the refs refused to correct their error all this moral outrage would fit.



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Discussion Topic: "Can u repeat the rule one more time please?"
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on March 21, 2015

Hank,
as Andrassy explained it he was telling them at scorers table that the score was wrong after match over but he said 2 officials told him to "sit down, that score was correct"

****BTW no one has mentioned just where was the 2nd ref in all this, asleep ???????????????



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Discussion Topic: "Can u repeat the rule one more time please?"
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on March 21, 2015

Quote from Bob Preusse's post:

"Hank,
as Andrassy explained it he was telling them at scorers table that the score was wrong after match over but he said 2 officials told him to "sit down, that score was correct"

****BTW no one has mentioned just where was the 2nd ref in all this, asleep ???????????????"



If so, that's wrong. Problem is that everything happened so quick that everyone failed to acknowledge the escape. They needed to go to video.



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Discussion Topic: "Can u repeat the rule one more time please?"
Brian Grimm added to this discussion on March 21, 2015

Quote from Rex Holman's post:

"The coach has to be the advocate when the system fails. As mentioned the system fails infrequently but it does fail and you know that going in. With so much on the line you have to be prepared as a coach for advocacy. It is the NCAAs, Is your game as a coach at the highest level or are you just emotional. One coach can be a emotional but the other better be a poker player watching the nuances of the game play out and ready to act as necessary.

The poker player coach better be prepared for the types of mistakes that are made. I blame everyone but Ian. Ian was obviously fatigued and was not thinking straight. He was fatigued like that against Ness in the semis last year. You only have two advocates per corner to make sure that your wrestler gets a fair shake.

Do you think Bill Belichik is emotional or a poker player?

The system fails (not purposefully but because of human error)

A set of rules are in place to contest any discrepancy.

Lesson learned, don't leave the mat as a coach or competitor if something does not seem right. Argue and protest in any situation where there is confusion. Don't be afraid to make an ass out of yourself for your wrestler, as you might just be in the right. What is worse? To feel bad about making an ass of yourself or to let something get by you that was preventable."



Agreed. Brands would have climbed onto the table.



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Discussion Topic: "Can u repeat the rule one more time please?"
Dan Harris added to this discussion on March 21, 2015

Quote from Jim Behrens's post:

"I thought about this yesterday when all of this was going down.
It sure seems like there is "blame" to go around on a lot of people but I wonder about something that I "think" would have fixed the issue before it became a problem.
It would appear as though the NCAA must still use paper bout sheets and pencils for scoring.
As we all know, you can not have a TD unless the wrestlers are neutral. You can not score a reversal or an escape unless there was a control situation. That part is not tough to understand.
What I wonder is, why is the NCAA not using one of the electronic programs? These are used in many of the larger HS events I do and they work amazingly well. The program knows that wrestler B can not score a TD unless the contestants are neutral. If they were in a control situation, there would have to be an escape before it will allow a TD. It simply will not allow the scoring to take place.
If this had been in use yesterday, the escape point could not have been missed. The scorekeeper would have known it right away.
There again, maybe I am over thinking this."



1: It seems like if they had walked through the scoring sequence in detail, even on paper, the numbers would not have added up.
2: The bouts are also being scored live on Trackwrestling, although I don't know if it automatically picks up errors.
3: If there is any doubt by the referee, they can choose to look at video with no penalty to the coach.



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Discussion Topic: "Can u repeat the rule one more time please?"
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on March 21, 2015

Quote from Dan Harris's post:

"

1: It seems like if they had walked through the scoring sequence in detail, even on paper, the numbers would not have added up.
2: The bouts are also being scored live on Trackwrestling, although I don't know if it automatically picks up errors.
3: If there is any doubt by the referee, they can choose to look at video with no penalty to the coach."



1) I agree completely. This is something I teach people when I teach them to score a match. There is a flow to it that should make it easy to follow.
2) I don't know how Track works but I would think it should
3) With 19 points (more or less) scored, speaking for myself, I would have to rely on the table. I would never remember how that many points were scored.

I guess this is where I don't understand the NCAA position. I was under the impression that the flag (and the video review) were for things that were under dispute on the mat. I didn't think it was for scoring issues. The escape was never in doubt as Realbuto, quite clearly, gave it.
I don't know that I would ever think of using the flag in that instance. Traditionally the coach would simply walk to the table and ask the official if the score was accurate. If not, why not?
If the question was asked and the official blew the coach off shame on the official.



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