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Discussion Topic: OHSAA Sectional seeding criteria
Ethan Moore added to this discussion on February 22, 2015

Luke just told that the mandate from OHSAA for sectional seeding is that all seeds are based on winning percentage. The only way for this to be reversed is for head-to-head win.

Anyone else think this is nuts? For the best of the best, seeds don't matter at sectionals. But HS coaches fight like crazy to get kids to Districts, and this rule will impact a ton of individuals and programs.



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Discussion Topic: OHSAA Sectional seeding criteria
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on February 22, 2015

I am not sure if it helps or hurts but here are the criteria that I am led to believe are to be used all over the state. Keep in mind that I am the messenger.

10.6 Seeding Criteria:

10.6.1 Returning state placer (1-3) at any weight class

10.6.2 Returning state placer (4-8) at any weight class.
A freshman wrestler that has more than 25 wins and has defeated a wrestler listed above him on the list and has a higher winning percentage will be seeded above the returning state place winner at any weight class (4-8). *The coach must e-mail the credentials to the manager.

10.6.3 Returning district placer (1-6) at any weight class. A freshman wrestler that has more than 20 wins and has a higher winning percentage than the returning district place winner will be seeded above the returning district place winner at any weight class (1- 6).

10.6.4 Tie-breakers:
 The higher placer at each level earns the higher seed.
 If two or more wrestlers have identical place finishes, the wrestler returning at the same
weight earns the higher seed.
 Previous year’s tournament place finish MUST have been at an OHSAA tournament.
 A returning placer can be from Division I, II, or III.

10.6.5 Won/Loss record (by percentage) from current season (minimum of 12 matches).
 In the event of a tie in percentage, the wrestler with the most wins will receive the
higher seed.
 If this does not break the tie, a coin-flip will determine the seed.


10.7 Seeding Meeting
 A seeding meeting will be held after wrestlers have been seeded by criteria at the beginning of weigh-ins.
 A coach may object to a seed based on criteria and the coaches will then vote for the seeds in that weight class.



Last edited by Jim Behrens on February 23, 2015; edited 1 time in total

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Discussion Topic: OHSAA Sectional seeding criteria
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on February 23, 2015

The OHSAA wanted to have every sectional "seeding" the same way -- and I have no problem with that as it actually makes sense; something that the OHSAA's decisions and their enforcement or lack thereof don't always have.

Anywho.......during these sectional seed discussions, I was told by those in /close to these discussions there was some whispering into the ears of the decision makers that seed meetings aren't necessary. WHAT!!! Are you kidding me?

This is a one time a year deal and if we, as coaches, can't take the time, ONE TIME A YEAR, for a seed meeting, then why are they coaching? Gladly, wiser heads prevailed and they did add seed meeting into their process. Now why they are making everybody do it during the weigh-ins is ridiculous. Let each section decide when this takes place.

End rant.



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Discussion Topic: OHSAA Sectional seeding criteria
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on February 23, 2015

Brady: If the OHSAA wants to make them uniform across the state, I, like you, don't mind that. However, by letting all sectionals conduct a seeding meeting, they are uniform in the aspect of all having the meeting.

In my mind, I think the only uniformity they saw as an option was to do away with it.



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Discussion Topic: OHSAA Sectional seeding criteria
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on February 24, 2015

Quote from Mark Niemann's post:

"Brady: If the OHSAA wants to make them uniform across the state, I, like you, don't mind that. However, by letting all sectionals conduct a seeding meeting, they are uniform in the aspect of all having the meeting.

In my mind, I think the only uniformity they saw as an option was to do away with it."



How they have it now is fine -- because they added the seed mtg. To not have one is foolish.



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Discussion Topic: OHSAA Sectional seeding criteria
Luke Moore added to this discussion on February 24, 2015

The problem is that there is not uniformity across the state. Sectionals are operating under their own rules based on what I have seen and heard.

There are many issues involved here. The main one being that the coaches had no say in any of these decisions. The second is that we found out less than a month before sectionals. Very frustrating!



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Discussion Topic: OHSAA Sectional seeding criteria
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on February 25, 2015

OHSAA sent an email to all sectional managers saying that seed mtg's didn't have to be during weigh-ins. They could be held as soon as seeding criteria on baumspage has been released. Good decision.



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Discussion Topic: OHSAA Sectional seeding criteria
Dan Harris added to this discussion on February 25, 2015

Good decision, awfully late notice. The deadline for rosters will have to be pulled back to tonight to have a Thursday night seed meeting. Don't know if that will even be attempted with the short notice.

Wednesday night roster deadline, Thursday night seed meeting is exactly what Tipp City sectionals would have done before this all went down. They changed to Thursday night roster deadline with seed meeting after Friday weigh-ins to comply. Now it turns out that what they had always done would have been compliant.

Not a huge deal other than being jerked around and probably a rushed seed meeting Friday.



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Discussion Topic: OHSAA Sectional seeding criteria
Jason L. Jackson added to this discussion on February 25, 2015

My understanding is that some coaches were upset that they seeded kids on Sunday and others didn't seed until Wednesday or Thursday. While the Sunday brackets should remain "confidential", we know that things get out. This allows the coaches who are seeding later in the week to move kids with the knowledge of where another wrestler was already entered.

Personally, keep it the way it was, just make every seeding meeting on the same date and time.



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Discussion Topic: OHSAA Sectional seeding criteria
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on February 25, 2015

Dan: What you have typed is part of the issue...the haste with which things were done.

We had a coach ask two questions that weren't even considered when making these procedural changes.

Letting everyone know that a change is being explored would have given any committee a chance to look things over AND CHECK WITH THE COACHES concerning any changes that would be made.



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Discussion Topic: OHSAA Sectional seeding criteria
Josh Lowe added to this discussion on February 26, 2015

Some points on this issue:

From what I've heard, there was talk about harmonizing sectional tournaments going back to the end of last season. However, things got forgotten in the off-season. By the time the state got around to establishing the harmonization, we were already into the season. Multiple stake-holders were involved in the process.

Given that it is the STATE series, the processes across the state for sectionals should be the same/similar. However, they weren't.

Entry deadlines across the state were all over the place prior to this year. As mentioned in some areas lineups were due on Sunday, others it was Wednesday, and others it was Thursday. Even though stuff isn't supposed to get out, it does.

In addition, bracket meetings were held at all sorts of different times. Some were on Sunday, others were Thursday night, yet others were being held after weigh-ins. This, combined with the above note created potential inequities.

Seeding procedures were different in different areas of the state. The northeast was 100% criteria with a ladder based on state/district/sectional/record, others had criteria as a starting point, with others not even that.

Bracketing procedures were different in certain areas of the state. Central district coaches could pick their bracket line in the sectional, while everyone else (or so I think) had seeds on the traditional lines with non-seeds filled in by computer.

---

Given all the above, I hope people see the need for a harmonized process. I am hopeful that the coaches association can have discussions on this during the off-season, and come up with recommendation(s) for the OHSAA headed into next season.

Noting that different areas of the state are coming from different starting points, I don't think anyone will end up with 100% of what they want. However, we can come up with something that is fair, consistent, and easy to execute.



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Discussion Topic: OHSAA Sectional seeding criteria
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on February 26, 2015

As long as there is a seed meeting, I'm good. Our sectional meeting is tonight at 7:15. Entry window closes at 7. Initial seeds are posted and we go from there. Quite simple process ... and this site made ot all possible. A good coaching friend of mine read this thread and my initial rant and text me about email that came from the state. This got ball rolling and day of seed mtg changed from Friday during weighins to tonight. Thanks!!!! Dot.Net making wrestling world better one post at a time.

What amazes me is that some sections went straight criteria. That's crazy. Strength of schedule, head to head, meant nothing in that system. To have coaches meet once a year for a seed meeting is not to much to ask.



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Discussion Topic: OHSAA Sectional seeding criteria
Josh Lowe added to this discussion on February 26, 2015

The northeast district has seeded on 100% criteria for as long as I've been managing a sectional (I think this is my 7th or 8th year already), and longer than that I'm almost sure.

Criteria in the northeast was state/district/sectional/record - more intricate than that, but just trying to keep it simple for here.

The obvious benefit of straight criteria is not having to hear any of the traditional seeding meeting drivel that gets thrown out there. The obvious detriment is the seeding ladder is imperfect (whether it's due to head-on's, outstanding frosh, etc; though the outstanding frosh got addressed somewhat by what the state put out this year). All that said, I don't see kids not making it to district that could make significant noise at the district tournament purely on bracket stuff these days.



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Discussion Topic: OHSAA Sectional seeding criteria
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on February 27, 2015

Quote from Josh Lowe's post:

"The northeast district has seeded on 100% criteria for as long as I've been managing a sectional (I think this is my 7th or 8th year already), and longer than that I'm almost sure.

Criteria in the northeast was state/district/sectional/record - more intricate than that, but just trying to keep it simple for here.

The obvious benefit of straight criteria is not having to hear any of the traditional seeding meeting drivel that gets thrown out there. The obvious detriment is the seeding ladder is imperfect (whether it's due to head-on's, outstanding frosh, etc; though the outstanding frosh got addressed somewhat by what the state put out this year). All that said, I don't see kids not making it to district that could make significant noise at the district tournament purely on bracket stuff these days."



It's not just about that. Almost all tournaments in regular season use straight criteria. Many use sectional placement as a low seeding criteria. More criteria allows for better draws, placement potential, etc. So it's not just the state tournament noise-makers that I'm thinking about.

I'd like to see the switch to trackwrestling, which has the capability to use head-to-head as criteria. For those districts that are pretty geographically large, there has to be some technology - video conferencing, etc., where the traditional seed mtg could replaced by.



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Discussion Topic: OHSAA Sectional seeding criteria
Luke Moore added to this discussion on February 27, 2015

I do agree that district need to be harmonized in the sectional process since this is the state tournament. However, for this to be brought up to the coaches 3 weeks before sectionals, without any input, was completely unacceptable.

I also don't mind the criteria aspect of it, but right now we are only operating under 3 criteria. State placer/qualifier, district placer, then record. This is just not good enough. 2 of the 3 are solely based on last years results, and if that is the case, then returning district qualifiers (not just placers) needs to be taken into account. But why put so much emphasis on last year's results? What about the kid that improved in the off season?

The third criteria (record) does not take into account SOS or tournament placings. If my kid is in the same sectional with Graham (thank God we aren't, haha) and I have a higher winning percentage, should I get the higher seed? In a coaches meeting, I am pretty sure the right order would be determined. We were told that only head to head matchups can be challenged.

I do get the argument that the best wrestlers will make it through regardless of seed, and 99% of the time, none of this will affect the wrestlers that make it to the Schott. However, to some kids, getting the right seed and draw will put them in a position to get to districts which could be a HUGE accomplishment for those wrestlers. Also, and I think this could be the case in my sectional, at times 2 of the top kids could be in the same half bracket, which hurts their draw at districts.

I just think that this needs to be a conversation that the coaches have a say in, and if it needs to be uniform, then no problem. But let's come to an agreement before February!

A positive for me tonight is that we already have a DQ (only 4 106 at my sectional)! Ha



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