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Discussion Topic: Is Tom Ryan a Great Wrestling Coach?
Pat Altvater added to this discussion on July 7, 2014
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Please, everyone, I am not trying to be critical here, but this is the question asked on a thread of 'themat.com'. - I thought that the question may be an interesting one for avid Buckeye fans.
It is interesting to see the comments and opinions of cross-country, non-ohio state fans after some comments on twitter by Tom that has been criticized by some.
First of all, I have no problems with Tom's comments on religion, and they probably closely mirror my own opinions on the matter raised.
Secondly, after reading the replies on that thread, they answer themselves, in a way, by defining what constitutes a 'great coach', in their opinion. By the comments there, they mostly require that a coach has come to a program, recruited well, coached up the athletes in house, and built it up from a lesser state, to eventually win a national championship.
Primarily they include John Smith, Cael Sanderson, J. Robinson, and Brands as 'current great coaches'. They did not include Jim Zalesky in that category as he won his championship with Gable's recruiting talent.
Most of the respondents felt that if Tom and the boys can produce a national championship this season, that Tom has accomplished all of the major goals of a coach and could be included in the conversation of those mentioned above. They also don't discount the fact that Tom has the opportunity to be the head coach of only the 4th - 4-time champion in NCAA history in Logan Stieber.
They seem to put Tom in a category with Flynn from Edinboro and Koll from Cornell that have built strong programs, but need that validation of a national championship to credit elite status.
I think OSU has a super team this year, but as a fan, and watching the history of seasons past, there are no guarantees that unexpected problems don't pop-up, on the mat, off-the mat, and injuries. It is hard to keep a team focused and healthy all the way from October to March. If OSU has any significant weakness going into the season, it is depth at some weights that could be exposed by injury.
Tom is certainly a good coach, with a great staff, a great recruiter, and I am a big fan and I hope that all goes well this season and the Bucks can bring home that trophy come March. - Then there would be no question about the place in Ohio State Wrestling's Coaching history that is deserved, and reserved, for Tom.
GO BUCKS!!!
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Discussion Topic: Is Tom Ryan a Great Wrestling Coach?
Patrick Campbell added to this discussion on July 7, 2014
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I think he is a great coach in respect to his development of young men (which matters most to me, but not to the university and most fans). As for his team's accomplishments on the mat, he is a really good coach with the potential to be one of the greats. As much as I like him personally, there is no way to put him in a category with the likes of Gable. Maybe someday. Maybe not. Of course the odds are against anyone to reach that kind of legendary status. As a Buckeyes homer, I can only say that I hope, in the future, history shows he is a great coach
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Discussion Topic: Is Tom Ryan a Great Wrestling Coach?
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on July 7, 2014
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Koll of Cornell deserves to be in the "great" coaches category. To do what's he's done at an IVY school is unprecedented. Add Dake to the coaching resume and the funding / facilities that Cornell has and it seals the deal in my book.
Ryan is right on the cusp of this as well.
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Discussion Topic: Is Tom Ryan a Great Wrestling Coach?
Jason L. Jackson added to this discussion on July 7, 2014
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Not sure, based on the standards given, that I'd put Brands on there if Zalesky is not.
Brands only won his two titles with the combined recruiting classes of Zalesky and his at VT. Would he have won a title at VT if he hadn't gone back to Iowa - I doubt it.
Would he have won a title without taking a number of transfers with him to Iowa - I doubt it.
Since his double recruiting class left, Iowa hasn't won a Big Ten or National Title.
I think, based on the Zalesky comment, that Brands should be removed from the list.
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Discussion Topic: Is Tom Ryan a Great Wrestling Coach?
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on July 8, 2014
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Tom Ryan is perhaps a Colt Sponseller 4th round cons win away from having brought an NCAA title to Columbus. If the difference between great and good is finishing first, then consider how such a slim thing can make that much of a difference.
Personally, I think Tom Ryan's finest coaching performance took place last season. In spite of redshirting a lot of talent, the team was terrific in Vegas, National Duals, Big Tens and NCAA's. With the exception of one tough streak during the Big Ten dual season, the squad wrestled well with most of the guys performing above past levels. They competed hard and showed improvement--and those are the hallmarks of excellent programs.
For Tom Ryan to be considered a great coach, this needs to be the norm and there needs to be depth. For example, the wrestlers to watch this season will be guys like DiJulius, Demas, Martin, Courts and Tavanello. Will they keep getting better? Can a few of them break through to AA? I know what to expect from Stieber, Stieber, BoJo, NaTo and Snyderman. It's the other five that bear watching.
And will they have any depth? Who can step in and help if any of the Big Five get hurt or need a break?
Tom Ryan has recruited strongly since arriving at Ohio State. Now, he needs to show he can maintain a program where the "next man up" philosophy isn't just a platitude. And the team needs to be good from year to year.
I think they're close.
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Discussion Topic: Is Tom Ryan a Great Wrestling Coach?
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on July 8, 2014
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the truly "great coach", in any sport, has a X Factor dimension: he can take his team to greater heights --to a championship-- by sheer "force of his will & his leadership".
this definition sets a VERY high standard and excludes alot of top guys, and it separates the "great" from the "outstanding".
i think no doubt Jeff Buxton and Jeff Jordan have that "greatness" dimension-- JRob certainly has it, John Smith too and Cael. And Gable epitomized it. ...s/BobP
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Discussion Topic: Is Tom Ryan a Great Wrestling Coach?
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on July 8, 2014
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your points well-made Hank, insightful thinking.
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Discussion Topic: Is Tom Ryan a Great Wrestling Coach?
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on July 8, 2014
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I kind of play both sides of the fence on this one. I totally understand and somewhat agree with the stance many are taking that to be considered truly elite you have to win the championship of your sport. But I bet if you talk to coaches, they'd say that some of their best years (from the perspective of how good a coaching job they did) were some of their least successful from a wins and losses perspective. Much like Hank said above, the job Coach Ryan did last year was fantastic...probably better than his runner-up years.
Also, if Coach Ryan does put it all together (combined with there being no other powerhouse team in the NCAAs) and wins a title, are we to believe he just became a better coach overnight? Is he really that much better a coach than he was last year or the year before? In DII, Ohio has NDSU, coached by Coach Romano...a mediocre coach at best during his years at Kent. Did he just become a great coach when he got to ND? More likely, in my opinion, there are a lot of other components that go into winning a title other than great coaching (although it's one of them).
I tend to lean toward the opinion that you can be a great coach without fielding consistently great teams. It's more about how you improve the talent you have, NEVER being a bad team or one that doesn't put forth good effort and (because we're talking about college), it's about what kind of young men you build. Coach Ryan seems to excel those areas and comes damn close in the winning department...and I'm saying this as someone who is neither and Ohio State fan nor a person who agrees with Coach Ryan's recent religious statements. Regardless of those facts, you'd have to be blind not to see that he's a good man doing good work.
Bottom line, with the number of men who have won NCAA titles in our sport being so small, I just struggle to accept that as the overwhelming criteria for "greatness". I just can't wrap my head around there only being four "great" coaches in college wrestling. I think there are probably closer to ten. Coach Ryan being one of them.
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Discussion Topic: Is Tom Ryan a Great Wrestling Coach?
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on July 8, 2014
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I was once blind. But now I see.
;-)
ps: great topic; great input. Love it!!!
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Discussion Topic: Is Tom Ryan a Great Wrestling Coach?
Mark Cummings added to this discussion on July 9, 2014
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I think Ryan's a great coach. He's taken a program that was treading water and made very nice strides forward. I love how passionate he is and how focused he is on producing fine men, not just fine athletes.
Any ideas who Ryan was in Long Island yesterday to recruit? Is he looking at Piccininni?
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Discussion Topic: Is Tom Ryan a Great Wrestling Coach?
Bruce Andrews added to this discussion on July 9, 2014
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There are a number of good things about Tom Ryan's coaching but there are a few things that I wonder about:
(1) based on the tweets he made, do those on the team that are not Christians feel somewhat left out of the general camaraderie of the team. Does Tom ask members of the team to have a group prayer before a match or to pray for someone that has had a misfortune? I would think those who are non-Christians may feel a little awkward in that environment.
(2) In the past I have felt that some of his guidance to wrestlers as to what weight to wrestle has not been as well thought out as it should be and that some wrestlers have wrestled at a weight which is not good for their health and performance and as a result, not good for the team.
Bruce
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Discussion Topic: Is Tom Ryan a Great Wrestling Coach?
Rex Holman added to this discussion on July 9, 2014
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It really depends upon what parameter you are using as a qualifier.
You can use metrics.
If it is about aiding in the development of a 4x NCAA Champion (then likely in short order yes)
If the qualifier is having a team title, (not yet, but quite possibly 2015)
If the qualifier is straight up NCAA champions produced comparative to everyone else, then yes.
If the qualifier is some combination of the above plus other parameters, then maybe.
What I am getting at is that the whole discussion is built around each individual’s narrative that we build up in our heads that attends to all of these variables but we weigh differently based upon our experience.
The reason Gable, Smith, Brands and Sanderson are identified as GOAT, BOAT or Elite is because they have the highest level of accomplishment across the board in these variables.
In actuality, some will be better in different parameters and how we weigh them will determine rank.
If you want to have a definitive measure, then everyone would have to agree on the parameters and order of importance.
Ain’t gonna happen. It is like trying to get democrats and republicans to agree.
No coach gets it all correct; some get it more right than wrong.
Power laws in play: the right stress in the right amount (the right workout and partners);
the right amount of nature/nurture (the right amount of learning the hard way paired with the right feedback)
Everyone is different, so those amounts vary.
So, my narrative is the coach that figures out his wrestler and utilizes the power laws to get the most out of them.
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Discussion Topic: Is Tom Ryan a Great Wrestling Coach?
Roe Fox added to this discussion on July 9, 2014
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" He's taken a program that was treading water and made very nice strides forward. I love how passionate he is and how focused he is on producing fine men, not just fine athletes."
this could also be said for his work at Hofstra.
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Discussion Topic: Is Tom Ryan a Great Wrestling Coach?
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on July 9, 2014
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Quote from Bruce Andrews's post:
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"There are a number of good things about Tom Ryan's coaching but there are a few things that I wonder about:
(1) based on the tweets he made, do those on the team that are not Christians feel somewhat left out of the general camaraderie of the team. Does Tom ask members of the team to have a group prayer before a match or to pray for someone that has had a misfortune? I would think those who are non-Christians may feel a little awkward in that environment."
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Is it anymore awkard than a Christian would feel when his non-Christian coach use vulgar language/tells vulgar jokes? Why are there no concerns for these young men -- not by you specifically Bruce, just to anyone?
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Last edited by Brady Hiatt on July 9, 2014; edited 1 time in total
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Discussion Topic: Is Tom Ryan a Great Wrestling Coach?
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on July 9, 2014
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I also think that the "where" you are coaching has a ton to do with it. Koll doesn't have the team championships but look at the high placing and the individual champs and what the program was prior to him. Add in the difficulty of the academics at the school, VERY impressive. Couple others that've been very impressive are Snyder @ Mizzou and Borelli @ CMU
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