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Discussion Topic: US Open
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on April 23, 2014
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I know comparitive scores don't mean much, but Pico's dominance over Retherford should be taken into account. Because of his age, many discount (or at least question) how good he really is. And I get the argument...we shouldn't be handing out medals to a kid that's never really won anything. While I agree with that, I think that if you take the time to watch Pico, his skills and talent are undeniable. I don't think anyone on the forum denies his talent, but where the Ohio bias comes in (IMO) is how no one thinks Pico would win.
I think Logan Stieber is an amazing wrestler, a once in a generation talent who I enjoy watching every time he takes the mat. I love how he attacks. I love how he looks to score from top. His mixture of technique and brute force make him the best wrestler in the NCAA.
But I also think that in freestyle Pico would beat him. I think Pico is equal in athletic ability and physical gifts, but he's the bigger man. I don't know that he's better conditioned, but I think he has a bigger gas tank. And the fact that he's training in freestyle full time absolutely matters. I think the match would be close. Stieber might get an early takedown, but Pico would wear him down with pressure and head work and score late for the win.
That being said, I'm wrong a lot.
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Discussion Topic: US Open
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on April 23, 2014
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I thought Retherford looked small when on the mat vs Pico. Also, Pico sets everything up with his head and arm snaps. He's just amazing at utilizing those techniques to get to a score. I don't think those set ups would work nearly as well on Brett Metcalf or Kellen Russell. Though I think Logan is a bit smaller than the two guys I just mentioned, he's so powerful and works so well in space that Pico would have a difficult time getting to his shots against him as well.
I think Pico vs Oliver could be intriguing because of Oliver's leaner build. That said--JO can hit a shot from space as fast as anyone I've ever seen.
Interesting stuff to contemplate.
I do think it's easy to go overboard when watching a wrestler like Pico clobber a tough kid like Retherford. But if Logan doesn't have a clunker at State College, we're probably not as impressed.
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Discussion Topic: US Open
Matt Nutter added to this discussion on April 23, 2014
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I think my vision of Pico tends to be clouded because I tend to remember him being in a tight match with Micah Jordan at Iron Man and think to myself there is no way he could beat Stieber. I fail to remember his domination last summer at the USA vs Russia dual when he teched the Russian that would go on the next day to control Kellen Russell all but 30 seconds of the match. With that being said Logan notched a win over Opan Sat (without training for freestyle full time) last summer also. I guess my ultimate take away is that we are deep with young talent in the US and it feels good!
As far as Stieber and Retherford wrestling freestyle. I have to agree with Jackson on this one. Zain is able to neutralize Logan with mat wrestling in folkstyle. Being brought to your feet continually works in Stiebers favor tremendously. I also believe he bars him up for some quick turns in freestyle.
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Discussion Topic: US Open
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on April 23, 2014
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Quote from Michael Rodriguez's post:
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" I think Logan Stieber is an amazing wrestler, a once in a generation talent who I enjoy watching every time he takes the mat. "
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Logan super, however David Taylor might be the "once in a generation" guy?
long ago, a couple comparative folkstyle scores just for referance, Not saying theyd be same today, but back then --
...2006 Ironman finals David Taylor 7, Logan Stieber 3. Taylor dominated 3rd period, legit win.
...2012 Ironman finals Pico 4, Micah Jordan 3 and yes it was this close with Jordan cuting Pico loose with 30 seconds left in failed attempt to take him down for win.
as for Freestyle, u right MikeR, Pico devoting his full time to freestyle matters. A great handfighter, Pico height & speed would give Logan problems. Logan's deadly on-top folkstyle turns negated here.
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Discussion Topic: US Open
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on April 23, 2014
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David Taylor is not a once-in-a-generation talent. That comment should be strictly reserved for Jordan Burroughs.
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Discussion Topic: US Open
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on April 23, 2014
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Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
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"David Taylor is not a once-in-a-generation talent. That comment should be strictly reserved for Jordan Burroughs."
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u missed the intention of my comment, i was addressing MikeR remark that Logan Stieber was a "once in a generation talent" (wrestler).
however re Taylor, some publication just did a ranking of the all-time college greats as far as who got BONUS points in the most matches. Taylor was ranked # 1 or 2 all-time with BONUS points in 92 or 93% of his matches, that makes him very special. ...s/BobP
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Discussion Topic: US Open
Dan Ransick added to this discussion on April 23, 2014
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With Burroughs he really didn't cement his legacy until winning the World Championships in 2011. He was a great college wrestler and a 2x NCAA Champion but there have been many of those. He also did get a 6th year from injury.
The way that Taylor went about scoring in his matches truly elevates him. He did this in just about every match he wrestled in.
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Discussion Topic: US Open
Rick Wasmer added to this discussion on April 23, 2014
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Discussion Topic: US Open
Ben Golden added to this discussion on April 23, 2014
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Quote from Dan Ransick's post:
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"With Burroughs he really didn't cement his legacy until winning the World Championships in 2011. He was a great college wrestler and a 2x NCAA Champion but there have been many of those. He also did get a 6th year from injury.
The way that Taylor went about scoring in his matches truly elevates him. He did this in just about every match he wrestled in."
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Burroughs didn't redshirt right out of high school, so he only had 5 years of college. DNP, 3rd, 1st, RS, 1st.
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Discussion Topic: US Open
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on April 23, 2014
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Quote from Rick Wasmer's post:
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"Dake"
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Rick,
no one said Taylor the all-time best, but he was one of them imo. What made him special is his 92 % bonus points (btw, much higher as i recall than Dake's 58 or so %). Dake is an all-time great, in the all-time top 5 for college in last years AWN poll of veteran writers & observers. But Taylor has his special place.
Its just like PINS, th greatest pinners have their special place. All-time PINNERS were btw, Wade SCHALLES and Gene MILLS, both with about 106 or 107 college career pins, as i recall. A few other guys like Gable were also at the top with their percentage of match pins. ...s/BobP
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Discussion Topic: US Open
Matt Nutter added to this discussion on April 23, 2014
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What is considered a generation? Is Cael considered in this generation or is it 10 year time frames. If Cael is considered I say he takes the top spot. If not I think Burroughs is slightly ahead of Dake who is slightly ahead of Taylor, Ruth and Stieber for the best in this generation. These conversations are forever debatable due to no set in stone formula on how to calculate these things. I do however love to see when one of these opinion battles gets rolling on here!
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Discussion Topic: US Open
Chris Thomas added to this discussion on April 23, 2014
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What is the criteria of once in a generation wrestler collegiate and/or international success? If you look at college it's Cael without a doubt, but if you look at international success Burroughs! Three consecutive World and Olympic gold. D.T. ,Cael,and Dake had better college careers but are not in the same world in freestyle wrestling with Burroughs accomplishments. D.T. and Dake haven't made the World team yet. Both are great college wrestlers and very good freestyle wrestlers.
If Stieber wrestled Pico in any style today he would get his hand raised! The senior and Junior level are a bit different. That said in two years Pico will be scary good and a lot could change.
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Last edited by Chris Thomas on April 23, 2014; edited 1 time in total
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Discussion Topic: US Open
Chris Thomas added to this discussion on April 23, 2014
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Quote from Dan Ransick's post:
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"With Burroughs he really didn't cement his legacy until winning the World Championships in 2011. He was a great college wrestler and a 2x NCAA Champion but there have been many of those. He also did get a 6th year from injury.
The way that Taylor went about scoring in his matches truly elevates him. He did this in just about every match he wrestled in."
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D.T. has the same amount of National titles as Burroughs and 2 less World titles and 1 less Olympic Gold. He only did 5 years just like Taylor.
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Discussion Topic: US Open
Jim Kessen added to this discussion on April 23, 2014
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[quote="Bob Preusse"]
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Quote from Rick Wasmer's post:
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"Dake"
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Rick,
no one said Taylor the all-time best, but he was one of them imo. What made him special is his 92 % bonus points (btw, much higher as i recall than Dake's 58 or so %).
The difference is Dake didn’t RS and D.T. did but had he not that % wouldn’t be has high. I love watching Taylor wrestle and will probably get beat up over this but who has he really beaten? I would say Logan's win over Oliver is better than any win Taylor had in college. Taylor is great but I don’t remember him beating any studs like others and I personally would take Ruth over Taylor.
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Discussion Topic: US Open
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on April 23, 2014
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James, of course Dake better than Taylor for college career. Theres no debate of the obvious.
i merely said his incredible Bonus point % made Taylor very special-- and it did, those stats speak for themselves. Thats why WIN magazine computed & printed them, its special.
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