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Discussion Topic: Vote For the Hodge
Pat Altvater added to this discussion on March 28, 2014

I gave my vote to Logan, but my logic and viewpoint is a little different that most of the opinions offered here. Obviously both wrestlers have had excellent years.

Let's look at the last 3 years history of this award. Two years ago, David Taylor had an excellent year, rightfully winning the Hoge along with his first NCAA championship. Rightfully earned.

Last year, Logan Stieber had the best singular year of any wrestler that year. He led all of the dominance and points earned per match rankings, but was over-passed for the award for Kyle Dake, who had an excellent 4-year career, winning 4 championships, but did not attain the dominance and points earned per match that Logan had. Based on the criteria items expressed, Logan should have won last years award. David Taylor's three losses to Kyle Dake contributed to Dake going undefeated and Logan not earning the Hoge last year.

This year, Taylor has another good year, and has no Dake to face, so everyone wants to give him the Hoge.

I disagree, I think the system owes Logan one for denying him last year, and Taylor's three losses last year helped make that happen. Logan now has three successive national championships, which surpasses Taylor's two. I know that all losses count, but lesser wrestlers than Logan probably wouldn't have been on the mat the night he lost to Retherford because his of weakened physical state due to the flu. Instead he was held down in seeding and ranking the rest of the year until he defended his championships at the national tourney.

Personally, I think Logan earned last years and didn't get it because the voters decided to make it a 'lifetime award' last year, instead of to the nations most dominant wrestler for the year. Taylor has already gotten his Hoge, so I think Logan deserves this one in an act of justice.



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Discussion Topic: Vote For the Hodge
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on March 28, 2014

I voted for Logan because I wanted to. Can't imagine a better reason.



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Discussion Topic: Vote For the Hodge
Jason L. Jackson added to this discussion on March 28, 2014

Michael, you are taking this like this poll means anything. If Logan happens to win the Hodge, it wouldn't be because me or anyone else voted for him on an internet poll. There are 42 or 43 votes case and this poll determines one.

If 21 people vote for Logan, then he will win and my vote will be justified. If 41 or 42 other people vote for D.T., which they will, then Logan will be the runner up for the trophy because of this one internet vote.

It's more to engage fans and attract attention to wrestling. I look at it like the fan vote for the NFL Pro Bowl. It's a piece of the puzzle, but not a big one.



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Discussion Topic: Vote For the Hodge
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on March 28, 2014

There are a lot of ways to measure an award like the Hodge but I believe Logan Stieber is the best wrestler in the college ranks. I think he's better than Ruth, Taylor, Perry, etc...

I also think his finals bout with Oliver will go down as one of the greatest matchups in the history of the D1 finals. Both are extraordinary.



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Discussion Topic: Vote For the Hodge
Ben Golden added to this discussion on March 29, 2014

I mean the Hodge is an award with established criteria. It's not just the "best" college wrestler like the Heisman is to football, it's for the most dominant wrestler and record, pins and "domination" are the top three written criteria. Taylor had a perfect record to Logan's loss and also had more pins.

If you were sponsoring a brisket contest and someone gave you a pulled pork sandwich as their entry, would you give them the prize because it ultimately tasted better or would you say, "this is good, but I'm looking for brisket"?


I maybe wouldn't mind if WIN Magazine wanted to change it to just be the "best" wrestler, but that's not my decision. That may make it more of a popularity contest, though.



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Discussion Topic: Vote For the Hodge
Pat Altvater added to this discussion on March 29, 2014

Quote from Ben Golden's post:

"I mean the Hodge is an award with established criteria. It's not just the "best" college wrestler like the Heisman is to football, it's for the most dominant wrestler and record, pins and "domination" are the top three written criteria. Taylor had a perfect record to Logan's loss and also had more pins.

If you were sponsoring a brisket contest and someone gave you a pulled pork sandwich as their entry, would you give them the prize because it ultimately tasted better or would you say, "this is good, but I'm looking for brisket"?


I maybe wouldn't mind if WIN Magazine wanted to change it to just be the "best" wrestler, but that's not my decision. That may make it more of a popularity contest, though."



Ben: My point is that WIN voters did change the rules last year by voting Dake as the winner. By their own criteria, Logan should have been the run-away winner last year, but they refused to look at domination ratio and pins, and instead gave it to the guy who won four national championships 'over an entire college career' over the guy that best met their criteria for that given year.

I got into an argument with a guy on TOM over this issue last year. He questioned me as 'dissing' Dake. I respponded that I wasn't disrespecting Mr. Dake, what he accomplished in his career was extrordianary and beyond question. BUT, he didn't have the most domeinant year last year, which is the purpose and goal of the Hoge recipient, that should have been Mr. Stieber.



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Discussion Topic: Vote For the Hodge
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on March 29, 2014

Ben: Brisket tastes better than pork. What's your point?


Kidding. I know Taylor deserves the award objectively. I am not being objective.



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Discussion Topic: Vote For the Hodge
Ben Golden added to this discussion on April 2, 2014

Quote from Pat Altvater's post:

"

Ben: My point is that WIN voters did change the rules last year by voting Dake as the winner. By their own criteria, Logan should have been the run-away winner last year, but they refused to look at domination ratio and pins, and instead gave it to the guy who won four national championships 'over an entire college career' over the guy that best met their criteria for that given year.

I got into an argument with a guy on TOM over this issue last year. He questioned me as 'dissing' Dake. I respponded that I wasn't disrespecting Mr. Dake, what he accomplished in his career was extrordianary and beyond question. BUT, he didn't have the most domeinant year last year, which is the purpose and goal of the Hoge recipient, that should have been Mr. Stieber."



Dake had more pins than Stieber last year. Also would have won the "quality of competition" category by beating Taylor twice (three times if you include the All Star).



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Discussion Topic: Vote For the Hodge
Ben Golden added to this discussion on April 2, 2014

Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:

"Ben: Brisket tastes better than pork. What's your point? ."



Was a rather foolish train of logic for me to pursue I suppose.



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Discussion Topic: Vote For the Hodge
Doug Brandt added to this discussion on April 2, 2014

Quote from Ben Golden's post:

"

Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:

"Ben: Brisket tastes better than pork. What's your point? ."



Was a rather foolish train of logic for me to pursue I suppose."



I kind of enjoyed it, myself.



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Discussion Topic: Vote For the Hodge
Pat Altvater added to this discussion on April 2, 2014

Ben: I tried to find the list of 2012-2013 NCAA statistical leaders for 'Most Dominant' Wrestler. I couldn't find it now, but I am pretty sure that Logan led that category with a 5.26 (approx.) points per match scored. Pretty impressive considering that 6 is the maximum. I see that Taylor had something like 5.09 on that scale this year.

I am pretty sure Logan's score per match was the highest of anyone's last year by a fair amount. - Then, one could always argue strength of schedule, but Logan had three victories last year over this years 133 lb. champ, Tony Ramos.



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Discussion Topic: Vote For the Hodge
Ben Golden added to this discussion on April 2, 2014

You are correct that Stieber had a higher team points/bout average, but Dake had more pins nonetheless, and that is higher on the criteria list than "dominance," which may or may not be synonymous with team points/bout.

If you want to argue that Ramos last year was a better wrestler than Taylor, good luck.

Stieber was an excellent and utterly dominant wrestler last year, but they only award one trophy per year, and I think Dake (who was also utterly dominant but stylistically doesn't score as many points) was the right choice.



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Discussion Topic: Vote For the Hodge
Steve Durose added to this discussion on April 2, 2014

Quote from Michael Rodriguez's post:

"

Quote from Steve Durose's post:

"...Why was Caldwell "certainly" a better opponent than Carter?"



Caldwell was: 5th, runner-up, 3rd, runner-up in four years in weight classes with names like Jordan Burroughs (gave him a 2-1 bout that year), Andrew Howe (beat him in the semis in 2011), Colt Sponseller (he was the 5 seed that year while Caldwell was the 3), Jarrod King, Nick Amuchastegui, Ryan Morningstar, Kyle Dake, David Taylor (only guy that Taylor didn't bonus, twice), Mike Moreno, and Nick Sulzer.

Carter was DNP as a freshman (round of 12), 5th as a sophomore (upset by Steve Keith of Harvard and then blitzed through the conso bracket until he ran into Ramos), runner-up as junior...and in my opinion made the finals because Port slipped up against Henderson. Not Carter's fault. You can only wrestle the guys they put in front of you, but I think Port was probably the better guy as evidenced by his win over Retherford."



Sorry, I didn't realize you were referring to what they each did as freshmen two and three years ago. I just meant that I didn't think Caldwell was a clearly superior opponent THIS year. But going by your criteria,yes,Caldwell clearly had a better tournament as a freshman than Carter.



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Discussion Topic: Vote For the Hodge
Chris Thomas added to this discussion on April 2, 2014

I think Carter would beat Zain because his defense might be a bit better than the Zain -Trains offense.



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