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Discussion Topic: David and Goliath
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on February 5, 2014
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So, is Paddock wrestling hurt?
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Discussion Topic: David and Goliath
Rex Holman added to this discussion on February 6, 2014
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Brer Bob-
Rex,
the rest of these fellows seem to get it, but i'm dense-- specifically, where do u think Ohio state is wasting practice time now and what would u change? ...s/BobP
I need to change your question a bit as the way you state it makes me highly critical of the OSU program. It is not my intention. I am upset about some of the performances of this past weekend.
I am being critical of all programs when I talk about structuring practice. When I mentioned Ian Paddock, it is because everyone’s performance is path dependent. Which means, where you end up is a result of the preparation that took place prior to. The preparation did not do its’ job. Again I can hear the peanut gallery saying that you get what you put into it. Really?
On the other hand, Nick Heflin is showing championship form. I loved his interview afterward. He speaks of his dream and talking about the national tournament and if needing to score, being able to do so. The problem with Logan’s performance is that he was not looking to score at the end. He is capable and did not do so. His performance at the end was opposite of Heflin. It is vitally important that someone has the right attitude about scoring. You are either attempting to score (which ultimately is determined by position and pace,) or shutting an opponent down (again position and pace.)
So, this seems like murky waters as some wrestlers are performing excellently while others not so much.
The litmus test is performance. Is the wrestler receiving the right stressors in the right amount so that they will be able to excel in performance. Seems like an individual thing. Hmmm.
Why skill level matters.
Let me tell of an instance during my senior year at UAHS; It was practice and I was wrestling with some guys who did not challenge my skills (frustrating), and then we went into a drill of splitting the middle. I had mastered this skill and it was not really one of my front line attacks as I don’t care for it. Well, the coach decided that the team was going to spend time there until everyone “got it.” I was more than perturbed at this point. This was mindnumbing and motivationally depleting. So, in effect, you take the best guy and punish him for being ahead of the curve and singlehandedly create a deafening noise. Too much of that is damaging. BTW, I was kicked out of practice that day for standing up for myself.
Brady talks about the different skill levels. Different skill levels require different stressors. Novices are choppily working their way through technique whereas advanced practitioners have the fundamentals down as habit and can process other information as their CPU is not bogged down in details of technique. Enter Logan Stieber. Imagine having a young Dave Schultz in your room and him going through your practice. Did you challenge his abilities and make him better as a result of that practice. He would need a highly specific plan which challenged him along with the right partners otherwise he would lose interest.
To me, Logan Stieber looks bored sometimes. Against Purdue, he did not see the challenge in escaping off bottom, reversing and turning his opponent. Logan has proven himself as one of the best of the best. He needs and deserves an individualized approach or at the very least a practice which meets most of his needs.
As far as an action plan goes and what I think you are inquiring about; I will write one up for Ken Courts because he intrigues the coach in me.
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Discussion Topic: David and Goliath
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on February 6, 2014
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Rex: Love your post. So much to discuss based on your comments.
1) I've said before that Logan has nothing left to prove in college and would probably be better off training full time for the Olympics. He's such a nice kid and team person that he probably doesn't want to disappoint Coach Ryan. But he needs to decide what matters most-- becoming a 4x NCAA champ or winning Olympic Gold. Selfishly, I hope he stays. But if his foremost dream is to win the Olympics, he should be training full time at it right now. My guess is he probably works out more with the RTC than the Buckeyes anyway and that may explain why he's had some snafus on bottom.
2) Had a kid for four years at Shaker that was strong, hard working and had a great attitude. But he just couldn't score so he often lost close matches. It used to drive me nuts and I'd try to figure out what he could do better offensively. He could get in on a leg...but couldn't finish. We'd review finishes, drill new ones, practice new setups...nothing. Near the end of his senior year, he just gave up on offense. Instead, he just moved forward off the whistle and pushed his opponents towards the mat's edge. Well, their reaction was to start taking bad shots. He'd snap and spin or even hit a pancake. He could ride decently and had a great standup so suddenly he started winning. He had a terrific sectional finishing a strong third placing ahead of several kids who'd had much better seasons. He didn't get out at Mentor but won a few matches and finished up the season competitively. Bottom line is that he figured it out---not me--and was able to end his career feeling as if he'd finally become a successful wrestler. I'm seeing the same thing right now with Heflin. He's figuring out how to use his quickness and power as a small 197 to his advantage.
3) One of the hardest parts of being a coach at a non-powerhouse program is deciding how to run practices that will benefit both your good wrestlers and your novices. There's no perfect way to do it. When I had tremendous individuals during the mid 1990's, I'd split the team a lot. I'd leave a few coaches to run practice with the rest of the squad. They enjoyed having the chance to be in charge and the kids got a nice change of pace from my way of doing things. I'd take my 4-5 advanced kids to other schools to work out. We went to Tri C and Case as well. They got quality, live wrestling work outs (imagine the poor schmucks at UA that got their butts kicked everyday by Rex) and a bit of advanced instruction. Anyway, that was my solution.
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Discussion Topic: David and Goliath
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on February 6, 2014
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Quote from Rex Holman's post:
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"
Brer Bob-
I need to change your question a bit as the way you state it makes me highly critical of the OSU program. It is not my intention. I am upset about some of the performances of this past weekend.
As far as an action plan goes and what I think you are inquiring about; I will write one up for Ken Courts because he intrigues the coach in me."
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Rex, ha, ha, am i Brer Fox or Brer Bear??
i look forward to your Ken Courts action plan. I sense u think he should be doing better.
Hank, well-thought out reflections.
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Discussion Topic: David and Goliath
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on February 6, 2014
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Solid stuff Rex and Hank.
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Discussion Topic: David and Goliath
Anthony Petrella added to this discussion on February 6, 2014
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Rex,
I have the same problems with guys on my team. When coaching, I teach them what I had success with and I always want to get them to at least try it and see if it is for them. I liked to grind and win the physical battle, but that isn't for everyone. I tell them that you have to have a goal, and smaller goals or you are just wandering in the desert. The truth of the matter is that wrestlers have to find the style that they will win with and exploit it. Wrestle in positions in which they are very good and continually guide the match into those positions. I'm also a firm believer in constantly attacking. That doesn't necessarily mean taking 100's of shots but always being in a position to score. I can't stand it when guys stand 2 feet from each other and don't attempt to make some type of contact. It drives me bananas.
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Discussion Topic: David and Goliath
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on February 6, 2014
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Quote from Anthony Petrella's post:
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"Rex,
I have the same problems with guys on my team. When coaching, I teach them what I had success with and I always want to get them to at least try it and see if it is for them. I liked to grind and win the physical battle, but that isn't for everyone. I tell them that you have to have a goal, and smaller goals or you are just wandering in the desert. The truth of the matter is that wrestlers have to find the style that they will win with and exploit it. Wrestle in positions in which they are very good and continually guide the match into those positions. I'm also a firm believer in constantly attacking. That doesn't necessarily mean taking 100's of shots but always being in a position to score. I can't stand it when guys stand 2 feet from each other and don't attempt to make some type of contact. It drives me bananas."
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Solid thoughts on the nuts and bolts of coaching. As to your comment on finding your way into the positions you like, two words: Johnny DiJulius.
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Discussion Topic: David and Goliath
Rex Holman added to this discussion on February 6, 2014
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I used Brer because you played yourself off as dense and then worded a question in a certain way.
Diagnosis Courts:
Technical (Positionwise)-on his feet has good movement low leg attacks with quick finishes. However, He does not hand fight effectively. There is no elbow pass, collar wrist tie, over tie, side snap, short tie. As such this makes him predictable and easy to scout. On top, limited in scope although has shown ability to tilt. Off bottom-pretty much the same.
Conditioning(Pacewise)-He does not like getting tired. Endurance is good in the first period but position significantly degrades as he fatigues. Uses his quickness effectively but, wrestles at a low to moderate pace. His feet need to be able to move for seven minutes as fresh as they do in the first period.
Rx: Increase scope of handfighting on feet. I would suggest with his style that he add a short tie elbow post near side and far side ( a technique that Melvin Douglas used) and elbow pass is a must. Minimum I want to see is a short tie and elbow post. While we are at it continue to work on his downblocking and crossblocking. His hands need to get moreso integrated into his wrestling.
On top develop 4 step progression which complements his existing tilt, I would suggest cross wrist turk along with a much improved tight waist near arm chop.
Off bottom pretty much perfect stand up cut away.
Conditioning increase the rate at which he wrestles to moderate and high.
That is the objective goal written part.
Integrating it with a practice plan takes some cleverness.
As far as developing the skillsets that I mentioned above there will be a lot of timed drilling and repetition until it gets to the point of habit. He will drill the same techniques 1 minute at a time through various progressions of the same skill until mastered. Then there will be a series of short goes (live wrestling)(5-10 seconds) in which a fractions of the position is wrestled. This makes the wrestlers understand the nuances of each position. Then there will be timed goes through the whole of a position. Then there will some live wrestling for various amounts of time in which the time is known and there are goals for each timed period. Then he is going to do drill matches at a higher pace than he is use to so that we can condition an increased rate of pace. All the while, there is going to be strict adherence to position.
That is a start towards the road of making into the wrestler that I want him to be.
Hank-I have a lot of similarities in opinion as you. Thanks for sharing.
Tony-Great to hear from you. I agree you can only help someone so much but I think you can trick them into taking on new skills and improve their understanding of wrestling.
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Discussion Topic: David and Goliath
Rex Holman added to this discussion on February 7, 2014
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Tony-
I thought about what you said and have some ideas. Really busy the next couple of days but hope to get back to you.
The Rx I designed for Courts and the type of drilling and positional work is really meant to address and improve upon awareness and reaction.
If you think about it, those are the two components which give advantage in wrestling. Quicker reactions once you become aware of a situation and the habit to act. Think Jeff Jaggers awareness of what position he was in the NCAA quarterfinals against Iowa State. Understanding what the position meant and acting instantaneously to cradle and pin.
Awareness and reaction while adding to scope of practice. You must add and incorporate new skills to complement an existing skillset, otherwise, you remain a one trick pony.
Work harder (on the things that make a difference).
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Discussion Topic: David and Goliath
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on February 13, 2014
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Rex -- Looking back on that situation (split the middle, you bored out of mind, kicked out of practice, etc.), do you think your coach should have booted you? I'm pretty confident in saying that you were the best guy in your room. In most HS rooms, the team feeds off that guy's energy, work-ethic, etc. Would it have helped you if the coach had talked with you ahead of time and was specific on what he wanted/expected from you in that practice?
From a high school coaches perspective, Practice set-up is VERY challenging when you have a grand canyon difference in ability level. I'm dealing with this currently. Form a Sr. ranked in the top 8 in the nation and a phenom Fr. to kids who've come out to the sport for the first time ever. I've spent more time in practice prep and in talking with my plan for my Sr. this year than ever before.
What you've described is an easy situation for a coach to fall into because we can lose sight of the special needs of the truly elite guys in our rooms.
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Discussion Topic: David and Goliath
Rex Holman added to this discussion on February 13, 2014
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Yes, Brady I should have gotten booted and I was right to get frustrated. Looking back, I did not like what I was doing and it was painful and I was a confused mess as to role, leadership, personal goals. Again, I believe the right stressors need to be in place to create growth. I did get help when Derryl Rhoda was hired as an assistant coach.
With your situation, you have a juggling act going on. I think it really comes down to doing the extra (which it sounds like your doing) to mapping out practices which benefit and prepare your guys. A lot of goals going on across the development spectrum. I think a lot of practice can coincide between the skill levels but your advanced wrestler definitely should get some different stressors than your novices during the course of practice which means different groupings. I would talk to your advanced guy and let him know what was set forth and possibly let him have input on what he wants/needs to work on.
You have been around wrestling and know how positions play out. I think it is possible to improve and refine things continuously as long as attention to detail and understanding is conveyed. I think that is one of the biggest roles you have as a coach of an elite wrestler. Guidance in thinking the right way about position and technical adjustments as the wrestler tries to improve upon and take on new skill.
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Discussion Topic: David and Goliath
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on February 13, 2014
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Quote from Rex Holman's post:
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"Looking back, I did not like what I was doing and it was painful and I was a confused mess as to role, leadership, personal goals."
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Would it have helped you if your coach would have communicated what he was planning for practice and what his expectations were for you?
Side question (for anybody), If you were captain of your team, did the coach communicate what your "duties as a captain" were? If so, what were they and did you do them?
I'm always looking for ways to improve as a coach.
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Discussion Topic: David and Goliath
Rex Holman added to this discussion on February 13, 2014
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Maybe would have helped me. Especially if I could have seen how it would benefit me and how I could have helped others. Again, one blurry mess, when you are trying to figure it out and following someone else's leadership.
Ideally, the right training partners and someone that can lead to create the right product of wrestling which would enable significant strides towards being a NCAA champion. The state championship will likely take care of itself as long as it is an endgoal along that continuum. Did I know that at the time or what it meant. No.
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Discussion Topic: David and Goliath
Rex Holman added to this discussion on January 27, 2016
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I wanted to revisit this thread as signal and noise seems to be a theme going through my head very loudly now.
IMar is a stud. That being said, what is interesting is that he will have to evolve going forward with Nolf. If he attempts the same strategy, he gets beat. Things just got a lot more ambiguous as he can't go about his modus operandi and expect to dispatch of Nolf and win a second title.
Essentially, there are two types of finishes from your feet. Those that score quickly with little contest and those that are substantially contested.
Nolf falls into the latter category. He does not give a clean finish and really works to counter attack once his initial position is breached. It is kind of one of my favorite things to watch in wrestling as a spectator. As Bob mentions, it takes a special attribute to engage positions in this manner and a certain kinesthetic intelligence. Kendall Cross has it. Cary Kolat has it. Some wrestlers have it. Some don't.
Some wrestlers are money on their explosive finishes. IMar is one. James Green is one. Ian Miller is one. Jordan Burroughs.
When the two types of wrestlers meet (those who are able to manipulate/contort and counter v those who are explosive), it is a beautiful thing to watch. Kendall Cross v Terry Brands '96 Olympic Trials comes to mind.
College wrestling favors the Prefontaine type of pace athlete. Once conditioning becomes a factor (and it will), it is the guy who gives an inch of positioning that will lose.
So, the quality of the attack matters much but it is always relative to the quality of the counter put forth by your opponent. With IMar v Nolf, we are getting to see excellence from the source.
That is signal.
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Discussion Topic: David and Goliath
Justin Hayes added to this discussion on January 27, 2016
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Rex, I'm really appreciative of these types of perspectives you offer, they help me refine what I could be looking for and appreciate the sport in growing measure.
If it would be appropriate, I'd like to read some of the insights/principles your dad has imparted/exemplified to you over the years as he is a common presence in a consistent amount of your posts...sounds likes a man one could learn from.
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