Discussion

Folkstyle

G-R and Freestyle

Teams

Rankings

2019 UWW Senior World Championships
2019 Final X
2019 Junior Greco-Roman National Duals
2019 Junior Boys' Freestyle National Duals
Division changes for 2019-2020 OHSAA Dual Championships
2019 AAU National Duals (Disney Duals)
2019 Yasar Dogu International Tournament
2019 Junior and 16U National Championships (Fargo)
Division changes for 2019-2020 OHSAA Individual Championships

Forum Home

Forum Search

Register

Log in

Log in to check your private messages

Profile

► Add to the Discussion

Page 1, 2, 3  Next

Discussion Topic: David and Goliath
Rex Holman added to this discussion on February 3, 2014

Doug-

I wrote this a couple weeks ago and decided not to post until you mentioned the full press.

One of Malcolm Gladwells' strategies is to make you reexamine the way you look at a past event through a different perspective.

In his latest book, David and Goliath, he goes about explaining the conventionality of thinking as it relates to competition and penal justice system. Competition is what intrigued me about the book.

He reexamines the concept of engaging your strengths while exposing your opponents weaknesses despite what may be obscured by outward appearance. David and Goliath and a junior basketball team are two examples from the book. He explains David and Goliath as employing your strengths and not bowing to convention. He explains the junior basketball team as creating a battle on their terms in which they had situational and positional advantage. *He uses battle of wills but I disagree. A battle of wills suggests an equal playing field. Not so much when you have a dominant situation or position. It becomes a battle of who can maintain the current pace in the position and situation that is being engaged.

It is interesting to me that a full court press totally disrupts the flow of the game. This is similar to an Iowa wrestling style that attempts to apply constant pressure from whistle to whistle. In doing so, technique can deteriorate quickly and the match simply becomes a fight to stay in position. Obviously the athlete who is conditioned to wrestle this style of wrestling has the advantage. A wrestler that is unaccustomed or unprepared is at a disadvantage. The match is really about being able to wrestle when fatigued and keep your game tight.

This is no different than Steve Prefontaine pushing the pace right at the start of the mile and turning the race into a battle of who can maintain the higher pace rather than a strategic bout. No different than Tom Brands bullying an opponent until position is relented.

But on the other hand you have Kendall Cross and Ben Askren who engage their opponents in unorthodox positions and stick to their strengths. The bout is not so much a battle of fatigue but a chess game. No different than Bobby Fischer playing the edge of the board in chess.

So, a wrestler has to figure out where you want to be upon that spectrum of technical skills and high rate of play and move forward but until then you will be stuck in a holding pattern.

Also, once you know and understand the variables at play, the game is not some big misunderstandable, anecdotal coaching silliness which further confuses.

Rather what must be done may be elucidated, the variables addressed, prescription given and those skills to be acquired may be methodologically gained.

But until then, good wrestlers with good intentions and a growing mistrust of conventional coaching practices will continue to spin their wheels like a truck stuck in the mud. Hence, my total disgust with hearing the verbatim that you should just work harder.



Add to the discussion and quote this      

Discussion Topic: David and Goliath
Rick Wasmer added to this discussion on February 3, 2014

Methodologically,,, 7 syllables !! Half of the sentences I write don't have 7 syllables lol.

Steve Prefontaine was cool, but Dave Wottle was awesome!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LHid-nC45k



Add to the discussion and quote this      

Discussion Topic: David and Goliath
Patrick Campbell added to this discussion on February 3, 2014

I love it when you talk dirty Rex. Please keep sharing this kind of stuff!



Add to the discussion and quote this      

Discussion Topic: David and Goliath
Rex Holman added to this discussion on February 3, 2014

Rick-

I don't like big words much but will drop one if it reflects what I am trying to express.

Thanks, I enjoyed the video. Strategy with the ability to back it up. I would say that he knew the race he wanted to run and implemented it and he had a good idea that he could take it at the end and it sounds like he ran the same race in the semifinals.



Add to the discussion and quote this      

Discussion Topic: David and Goliath
Rick Wasmer added to this discussion on February 3, 2014

All in good fun!

72 Olympics were awesome tho tempered by the murder of the Israelis.
Wottle ran the same race in all his heats, it was cool to see!



Add to the discussion and quote this      

Discussion Topic: David and Goliath
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on February 3, 2014

Quote from Rex Holman's post:

" Also, once you know and understand the variables at play, the game is not some big misunderstandable, anecdotal coaching silliness which further confuses.

But until then, good wrestlers with good intentions and a growing mistrust of conventional coaching practices will continue to spin their wheels like a truck stuck in the mud. Hence, my total disgust with hearing the verbatim that you should just work harder."




Rex,
sounds like u have acquired a basic distrust of conventional coaching? interesting, were u at one time a "conventional coach? tell us about your journey to this conclusion?? since you yourself have coached and were a coach once at Ohio State U in the mid 90s.

i think this dovetails into your premise. i'm not an expert on coaching nor wrestling, however the name of the game is people, thats why i'm a writer, i'm a pretty good observer -- i always like to observe someone whose different and successful. i would have enjoyed Gable. Or Cael now, as he has every other coach bewildered.

what do they do and how do they think differently?? why does it make sense, why is it working? why don't others do it?? are others too stubborn, not capable, not aware, afraid, too egotistical, limited in ambition, complacent ??

what separates the highly successful person, specifically in this case in the field of coaching??
...s/BobP



Add to the discussion and quote this      

Discussion Topic: David and Goliath
Rex Holman added to this discussion on February 4, 2014

Bob-

Some answers.

Cael overachieves at PSU because he has amassed talent. We would not be having this conversation if he were still at Iowa State. He would not have outrecruited Tom Brands in state and consequently out of state. He relocated to the most talent rich area in the U.S. He gets the best recruits. Cael is golden as his record speaks for itself. On the matter of development, I think he has hit the upper limits in development with more than half his wrestlers (which is great. Why so? Topic for another time). Nico Megaludis, David Taylor, Ed Ruth and Quentin Wright have made him look the genius. What does that tell me? It tells me that the environment and structure are the right complement of stress and reinforcement for those guys.

Coaching (to me) is having your athlete prepared for the positions and situations of which they will encounter and to have them maintain or influence the pace at which the match is wrestled. It goes back to the above essay. How did I come to this conclusion? Years of wrestling and introspective questioning.

Let me qualify this again, position and pace are the fundamental determinants of outcome.

Position and Pace. Position and Pace. Position and Pace.

If I am to hold true to my philosophy, then my practice of coaching should be centered around those two tenets. If not, I am full of bullshit.

My road to enlightenment has been a gradual progression as I was spoon fed and digested a lot of what was told to me as gospel and had no reason to question what was taught. Some of what was said was the signal but a lot of it was noise. Noise is a distraction to the message. A lot of coaches hone in noise because they have mistaken it as the signal.

Let me explain. Let’s say the structure of a practice produced a champion in the form of a wrestler who would later go on and coach. The artifact left over from that coaches’ experience is the format of practice which “made him a champ”. So, the coach will structure a practice based upon his past experience. While in fact that structure may have little to do with POSITION and PACE.

Same thing goes on in the fire service. For instance, A recent NIOSH study showed empirically that you cannot push fire and superheated gasses to other areas of a structure while attacking with a fire stream (high pressure water)if it has already vented. So, the take away is to hit the fire from outside and cool it down and then start your interior attack. Now, if you were to ask an old timer steeped in anecdotal evidence, you would be told otherwise quite convincingly. Wrong answer, just a bunch of noise(artifact from anecdotal evidence).

So, I have pretty much set the stage for conventional wrestling practices. Set up, with arbitrary endgoals which may or may not address position and pace. Let’s say that on a good day 50% of it applies to my tenets, That is 50% inefficiency. That is a lot of wasted time and effort.

My point is that conventional practice is largely arbitrary with no definitive endgoals and serve no purpose other than to make you work hard and get tired. Well, that’s just dumb.

I propose that wrestling practices always be driven toward endgoals which are central to position and pace. Each warm up, each drill, each positional wrestling go, each situational scenario, each match, each conditioning exercise is goal and task driven towards position and pace.

The Big Ten is a rough conference and any weaknesses will get exposed. Again, they are along that continuum of position and pace. The Buckeyes have come up short in both of those regards during this part of the season. I am trying to illuminate the areas which need addressed and the subtlety of structuring practice.

Ian Paddock is a stud. He comes across as the guy who will do anything you ask of him as an athlete. When I see him have a meltdown at the end of a match it bothers me a great deal and I want to point my finger at someone and say you did this to him. Instead, what hear you hear from the peanut gallery is he is not tough, he does not care enough, maybe he just needs to work harder. I think you know how I feel about that. Simplistic comments from people who do not understand the mechanism of injury.



Add to the discussion and quote this      

Discussion Topic: David and Goliath
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on February 4, 2014

Rex stated: "I propose that wrestling practices always be driven toward endgoals which are central to position and pace. Each warm up, each drill, each positional wrestling go, each situational scenario, each match, each conditioning exercise is goal and task driven towards position and pace."

I would LOVE to see a week's worth of practice of this style. Then, compare it to how I've structured my practices.

I suppose a great deal would depend on the skill level of the athletes, as well as the time of the season, but I'd still love to see it!



Add to the discussion and quote this      

Discussion Topic: David and Goliath
Doug Brandt added to this discussion on February 4, 2014

Rex, thanks for your posts. I can't discourse on wrestling training with any authority, but I do recognize some patterns that present themselves in various guises in wrestling and other sports.



Add to the discussion and quote this      

Discussion Topic: David and Goliath
Leo Zimmer added to this discussion on February 4, 2014

Rex, I could read this stuff all day long!



Add to the discussion and quote this      

Discussion Topic: David and Goliath
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on February 4, 2014

Quote from Mark Niemann's post:

"I would LOVE to see a week's worth of practice of this style. Then, compare it to how I've structured my practices.

I suppose a great deal would depend on the skill level of the athletes, as well as the time of the season, but I'd still love to see it!"



Skill level (and dedication level) play a HUGE part in this. Of the 23 on my roster, I have 10 that LOVE wrestling, 6-8 are doing it because they want to (lose weight, improve footwork/balance/etc. for football, etc.) and the rest are doing it because we've been successful and they want to be part of something that's doing well.

IMHO, this is a entirely different ballgame to plan for than what Brands, Sanderson, Smith, Ryan, etc. are dealing with on a daily basis and I must structure my practices accordingly (to hopefully move the #'s toward that "love wrestling" stage).



Add to the discussion and quote this      

Discussion Topic: David and Goliath
Bill Splete added to this discussion on February 4, 2014

Rex,

Your perspective and opinions cause every coach to stop and consider his approach, preparidence and the perception of hard work being the answer to all things unknown, success being one of those unknowns. Coach Storey was a great proponent of being prepared and movements and motion where specific and purpose driven, we didn't waste time, and practice always had a purpose, his process has been a great help to me day to day.

I have said this many times and will say it again, a coaches clinic with Rex would be worth every penny, and I would pay, as his perspective, research and applications have been a great source. We have all gained something from his posts, sometimes it's to challenge conventional wisdom, schedule the day and we can all meet their. It would be a great day.



Add to the discussion and quote this      

Discussion Topic: David and Goliath
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on February 4, 2014

Quote from Rex Holman's post:

"
Bob-
Position and Pace. Position and Pace. Position and Pace.

The Buckeyes have come up short in both of those regards during this part of the season. I am trying to illuminate the areas which need addressed and the subtlety of structuring practice.
"




Rex,
the rest of these fellows seem to get it, but i'm dense-- specifically, where do u think Ohio state is wasting practice time now and what would u change? ...s/BobP



Add to the discussion and quote this      

Discussion Topic: David and Goliath
Doug Brandt added to this discussion on February 5, 2014

Several days before the Super Bowl, I heard some reporter on the Dan Patrick radio show mention that he had recently seen the Seattle Seahawks practice.

He was absolutely blown away by the precision, the pace and the length of the session. It didn't last very long, but so much was accomplished in such a short length of time. Everything was perfectly timed, and the execution was remarkable.

At that moment, I felt Seattle was going to win the Super Bowl. Just not by 35 points.



Add to the discussion and quote this      

Discussion Topic: David and Goliath
Patrick Campbell added to this discussion on February 5, 2014

Quote from Rex Holman's post:

" Simplistic comments from people who do not understand the mechanism of injury."



Well, that sums it up don't it? Also the very thing I deal with in my office daily. In all aspects of life, it's hard to help people that don't know what they don't know and refuse to acknowledge there could possibly be anything they don't know.

My daily mantra...help me to uncover today the things I don't know that I don't know.



Add to the discussion and quote this      

► Add to the Discussion

Page 1, 2, 3  Next