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Discussion Topic: Silent H
Rex Holman added to this discussion on April 13, 2011
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http://www.gohiocasts.com/coverage/238632-2011-US-Open/video/483222-Andy-Hrovats-Russian-Experience
This is a great interview and it covers the difference in preparation of two different cultures. The way the Russians train is not the same. Goal Win 2 x 2 min periods. Train that way.
Folkstyle is our national style. Transitioning to freestyle requires learning a different set of rules, adjusting current skillsets and learning new ones. Then you get to compete against other wrestlers that have a superior model for success. Is there any reason other than being a wrestling purist, not to pursue MMA at this point? You are essentially taking on the same task of adjusting skills and learning new ones while getting to compete in front of huge crowds, earn some $, and gain name brand recognition.
Mainstream America has heard of Cael Sanderson but they know who Rashad Evans is.
I know this sounds pessimistic but this is the nuts and buts of the debate which any collegiate wrestler is going to juggle.
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Discussion Topic: Silent H
J.P. Barner added to this discussion on April 13, 2011
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Enough kids begin wrestling freestyle in middle school to know how they stand at it by the time they graduate college. Only the 'creme' will succeed internationally.
But any hardass who doesn't mind getting his face reconfigured can complete at MMA. And I'd be curious to know just how much $$$ we're talking about - for all but the very top guys?
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Discussion Topic: Silent H
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on April 13, 2011
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MMA... I hope it's a lot of money very quick and full! What's the average staying time in the UFC? Am I being generous or tight with 5 years?
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Discussion Topic: Silent H
Rex Holman added to this discussion on April 13, 2011
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Mark-
I would say 5 years of taking hits to the head would be more than enough to cause early onset pugilistic dementia (boxer's dementia). But when you are twenty three, fifty is a long way off. Couple that with the desire to compete and make money and that is strong motivation to fight.
I would say any highly motivated elite wrestler can do well in MMA if they train full time and get the right coaching. MMA is becoming very technical. Guys are fighting longer into the fight but taking repeated head shots, which is not good.
I guess my point being is that there are systems of training available in which very good wrestlers are becoming excellent fighters but we still continue to struggle at the world level due to the relative disadvantages that are part of our system.
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Discussion Topic: Silent H
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on April 13, 2011
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Rules, rules rules-- FILA rules nowadays with three 2 minute periods and separate scores for each period are not conducive to how America's best wrestle.
Theres not the opportunity now to wear an opponent down, to test his mettle, to pressure him and force him into errors like there was in the past when we had one continuous 5 minute match.
And then later we had a 6 minute match consisting of 2 three minute periods but it was one continuous 6 minute match, one score only. (Actually i forget which came first, the 5 minute or the 2 three's, but i recall them both.)
Also "passivity" was called back then, not called today. Tom Brands won a couple Olympic/World titles forcing his opponent into getting passivity calls.
the greatest American wrestlers push an opponent to his limit which requires longer periods & match than just winning two 2 minute periods--- that longer match is where pressure and conditioning and toughness pay off. Traits that the best American wrestlers often have more of.
also we don't understand how to wrestle with the "PUSH-OUT" rule, according to my discussion this past weekend with Hall of Famer Bobby Douglas who has some strong opinions on our shortfalls and what we need to do to remedy them.
Rules today favor tactics which apparently we aren't yet good at, and we need to improve, i understand that. s/BobP
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Discussion Topic: Silent H
Rex Holman added to this discussion on April 13, 2011
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I liked the 2x3s and 1x5, but 3x2s/best two of three definitely favors the European style.
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Discussion Topic: Silent H
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on April 13, 2011
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Rex,
And furthermore, the short 2 minute period ending in a winner --in the best 2 of 3 match-- and the CLINCH rule both favor the INFERIOR wrestler, imo. Many inferiors stall and wait for the clinch ball-in-the-bag LUCK since it gives them a 50-50 chance of geting the clinch and thus probably winning the period.
BTW, i am asking a collection of prominent college coaches and high school coaches this question now, i'm waiting for results:
Coach,
does high school & college folkstyle need to incorporate the "push out rule" from FILA wrestling-- and why or why not ???
i think YES myself, could call it the "out of bounds rule" in folkstyle --- would stop fleeing the mat, encourage less stalling & more action, encourage wrestler to fight harder to stay near the middle.
s/BobP
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Discussion Topic: Silent H
Rex Holman added to this discussion on April 13, 2011
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Bob-
I'd be interested to hear Bobby D's interpretation of the pushout.
It would help US wrestlers make a quicker transition at the next level if it were incorporated at the high school and NCAA level because it would force that position and skills would be aquired at an earlier age. It makes a wrestler mindful of the edge and develops a skillset.
A lot of scoring takes place due to the push out rule.
Pushing a wrestler out of bounds is sumo wrestling.
I don't care for that aspect of wrestling. So, I would not work on it unless it was a necessity. If I wanted to be an NCAA Champ or a state champ and the pushout was part of the rules and a significant means of scoring, then it would be a necessity and I would develop it. Basically a means to an end.
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Discussion Topic: Silent H
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on April 13, 2011
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BobbyD is in favor of push out rule in college. To prevent fleeing the mat and playing the out of bounds by inferior wrestler --and for US wrestlers to learn how this tactic works before they get into FILA.
In FILA he thinks US wrestlers don't know how to wrestle near out of bounds, that US guys try to get takedowns there while foreigners concentrate on pushing out where they are often successful.
thus u get alot of 1-0 periods in FILA, win by pushout, not too thrilling nor does it test wrestling skill. Which has been part of my point, 2 minute periods, best 2 of 3, PLUS clinch rule favor inferior wrestler. s/BobP
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Discussion Topic: Silent H
Rex Holman added to this discussion on April 13, 2011
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Bob-
I can see how you logically get to inferior wrestler. The rules are what they are. A wrestler may be inferior in a lot of positions but scoring when and where it counts is the name of the game. Brandon Slay is not as accomplished a wrestler as Satiev. But he had a great blast double, gutwrench and outstanding defense. That was it. But that is all that he needed to win. BTW, a great defense or counter offense is no small feat, although it is boring to watch.
So, I agree the rules need to be changed if you want more action and positions of engagement.
But in the end, if you are a coach and you care about your athlete, you want to give him he best chance at winning, you develop skills and strategy to address the rules that provide that opportunity.
I remember sitting in the stands at the Worlds in '95 watching KJ win. It was a boring match, totally defensive wrestling. I still held to the ideal at that time of pushing the pace and engaging all types of position. But that was a mistake when it comes to winning. In order to win, you pick and choose specific battles and leave the other things alone.
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Discussion Topic: Silent H
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on April 13, 2011
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The Kolat v Ware match should be shown to all American freestyle aspirants because each period had its own tactics. Ware used his front chest exposure to easily win the first. And Kolat was smart enough not to waste energy the rest of the period when he was down 4-0. Basically, he gave up the period at that point. In the second he came out aggressive, scored twice and it was Ware who conceded. In the third, Kolat worked the mat brilliantly to gain a pushout and a 1-0 lead. Most of us, including Kolat, seemed to think that one point would win the match. But Ware went to work using the exact same tactics to get in on a leg near the out-of bounds and nudged out Kolat for the point and the win. We can argue about the stupidity of the last point scored being the deciding factor but it is how the rules are set up and is a tactic. Both wrestlers used single legs not as takedowns but as a means to force out their opponent. I enjoyed the match immensely because of how well wrestled it was. Neither of these wrestlers is probably a strong medal contender but they will be capable of medalling simply because they understand how to wrestle freestyle.
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Discussion Topic: Silent H
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on April 13, 2011
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good analysis of Kolat vs Ware, i enjoyed it also because a near-legend almost won the US Open at age 37.
one reason we see these dull 1-0 scores in FILA could be the short 2 minute period that encourages the inferior wrestler to stall and hope for the clinch.
fyi Kerry McCoy responds with this:
I would like to see some kind of rule (in College wrestling) similar to the freestyle push out. I do think there is a lot of wasted time and missed scoring because of wrestlers playing the edge. I agree it would all but eliminate the rarely used fleeing the mat call controversy.
Let me know if you need more.
Kerry
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Discussion Topic: Silent H
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on April 13, 2011
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Why change the college or even high school scene. Why not just wait for FILA to change again???
I mean let's face it, how many times in the last 20 years has there been a significant rule change in freestyle??? And the next 20???
Following their lead will have an opposite of the desired effect.
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Discussion Topic: Silent H
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on April 13, 2011
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Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
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""...2 minute periods, best 2 of 3, PLUS clinch rule favor inferior wrestler. s/BobP"
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And yet, the Russians continue to dominate the world level. I think they'd contend that they are the better wrestlers, but in the 80's, early 90's (when they were still winning at a very good rate), the American's weren't better wrestler, just in better shape.
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Discussion Topic: Silent H
Ethan Moore added to this discussion on April 13, 2011
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It seems that a lot of American matches at the trials, the Open, etc come down to the clinch. At the last World Team Trials finals almost every period came down to the clinch at 0-0.
On the other hand, when I have watched matches from the Russian nationals (thanks to Flo... Wow) it seems there is non stop action.
Perhaps the Russians are more willing to take risks because they are more confident that they can score, much like the young PSU wrestlers from this season.
Just my observation.
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