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Discussion Topic: Finals Predictions
Sean Koran added to this discussion on March 19, 2011
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Not really sure how Flores didn't get 2+2 there. Announcers claimed that Rey had the ankle, but he clearly lost it.
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Discussion Topic: Finals Predictions
Josh Lowe added to this discussion on March 19, 2011
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Quote from Sean Koran's post:
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"Not really sure how Flores didn't get 2+2 there. Announcers claimed that Rey had the ankle, but he clearly lost it."
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I thought it was for a moment too, but I guess there was a lack of position for discernable control (at leaast in the refs' eyes).
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Discussion Topic: Finals Predictions
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on March 19, 2011
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Flores blew the match. The ref was correct that control had not yet been established but Flores just had to get his leg back. Instead he stared at Rey while Rey slowly grabbed hold of his foot.
Kyle Dake wrestled a superb finals match. He looked like a different wrestler than the other times I've watched him.
Reader is a beast.
Robles--it's not really fair for his opponents but Robles is a great story and could end up being very good for the sport. We need him speaking out about how wrestling continues to be cut. He needs to point out that there are no other D1 sports for not only handicapped kids but simply kids his size.
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Discussion Topic: Finals Predictions
Alex Creech added to this discussion on March 19, 2011
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The most dominating match of the night, to me, was Dake, with Burroughs and Reader right there. I'm not so sure that a healthy Caldwell would be a lock to beat Dake.
5 undefeated champions. Robles, Oliver, Russell, Burroughs and Reader.
I think the Hodge is between Burroughs and Reader.
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Discussion Topic: Finals Predictions
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on March 19, 2011
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Alex: Darrion Caldwell's junior season he destroyed everyone. That said--no one really knows what would have happened. Dake is now a 2x champ and wrestled brilliantly this evening.
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Discussion Topic: Finals Predictions
Rex Holman added to this discussion on March 20, 2011
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Hank-
My sentiment is in line with yours.
The only thing about fairness is that it is relative and based on rules. Robles competes within the rules.
Robles would have been an excellent wrestler with two legs as well, but who knows what might have been, he may have gone out for basketball if given different life circumstance.
Flores had it but made a mistake and did not finish correctly. I feel for the guy but he left it in the hands of the ref. I had a friend text me upset about that call---so I understand that it runs emotionally deep for a lot of people.
I will never pick against Dake again in a bracket. He is awesome.
No one could hang with Kilgore's pace. He looked like a wrath that just sucked the vitality out of his opponents. Case in point, Simaz scored in the first period on the edge with a leg and was unable to do so again in the third in the same position. Kilgore never faltered in the pace.
Bubba Jenkins-wow! I can't help but think that his experience with Metcalf left him frustrated and at odds with so many things. He is an amazing talent and although he beat an Ohio guy, I am glad that there was a coach out there that could help him. Without the right support we would not have been witness to that amazing match.
Reader had a great situation, Kevin Jackson, Paulsons, and going up a weight class.
I really like Quentin Wright's style and found myself rooting for him. That guy came full circle in about 4 months and his delivery reminds me of Mitch Clark.
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Discussion Topic: Finals Predictions
Ben Golden added to this discussion on March 20, 2011
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Rex: I agree about pretty much everything. Dake's was probably the worst beating I've seen in the NCAA finals. Maybe I'm getting a little carried away with that (Burroughs was utterly dominant as well, but at this point he's done that so many times that it's expected), but Dake was just incredible.
About Robles, I've made a similar argument several times in the last few days. Yeah he has a significant advantage because he's got the upper body of a 157, there's no leg to grab, and you can't really train against a one-legged partner, but he uses what he's given and you can't fault him for that. He's quite an athlete, has worked hard to perfect his wrestling in his best positions, and dominates within the rules.
About the match itself, I came out of it even more impressed with McDonough. Down 7-0 or 7-1 early, he still seemed perfectly poised, wrestled smart, and wrestled to win right up to the final whistle. He just wasn't able to get any points.
Kilgore! Someone on another site said Kilgore was getting worked over and then Foster pulled him on top of himself. Maybe I'm biased, but that's not what I saw at all. Kilgore got in on Foster's legs several times, and while he was unable to finish on the edge, that wall was likely to break down at some point. I'd be interested to see if anyone else thought Kilgore was getting "worked over."
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Discussion Topic: Finals Predictions
John Flanigan added to this discussion on March 20, 2011
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Quote from Ben Golden's post:
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"
About Robles, I've made a similar argument several times in the last few days. Yeah he has a significant advantage because he's got the upper body of a 157, there's no leg to grab, and you can't really train against a one-legged partner, but he uses what he's given and you can't fault him for that. He's quite an athlete, has worked hard to perfect his wrestling in his best positions, and dominates within the rules."
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I think his biggest advantage is that he is always able to dictate position from neutral and can much more easily control pace.
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Quote:
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"
Kilgore! Someone on another site said Kilgore was getting worked over and then Foster pulled him on top of himself. Maybe I'm biased, but that's not what I saw at all. Kilgore got in on Foster's legs several times, and while he was unable to finish on the edge, that wall was likely to break down at some point. I'd be interested to see if anyone else thought Kilgore was getting "worked over.""
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Kilgore might have been pushing, but he was getting worked over pretty well, IMO. He could not finish while Foster was able to finish on a couple of occasions. While Foster did pull him on top, he did not have much choice. I thought the ref was REALLY slow on calling the pin, as it looked like Kilgore had him stuck twice before the ref called it.
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Discussion Topic: Finals Predictions
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on March 20, 2011
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Speaking of pins...
Am I the only person that wondered if Bubba Jenkins had pinned himself? At one point, he seemed flat while holding the cradle. In spite of the announcers, I wasn't sure who'd won until Jenkins hand was raised.
I'm still not certain how you pin someone with a near side cradle but no chest pressure. Jenkins must have had that thing really tight.
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Discussion Topic: Finals Predictions
Jim Kessen added to this discussion on March 20, 2011
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Bubba's pin reminded me of the cradel Jaggers hit a few times did during his first run at a national title.
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Discussion Topic: Finals Predictions
Patrick Campbell added to this discussion on March 20, 2011
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Quote from Ben Golden's post:
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"
Kilgore! Someone on another site said Kilgore was getting worked over and then Foster pulled him on top of himself. Maybe I'm biased, but that's not what I saw at all. Kilgore got in on Foster's legs several times, and while he was unable to finish on the edge, that wall was likely to break down at some point. I'd be interested to see if anyone else thought Kilgore was getting "worked over.""
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I would not classify the match as Kigore getting worked over. He had one solid takedown against him. He lost position on the other. He let 2 takedowns go out of bounds. In NO WAY was he being dominated. If anything, he was being sloppy. He was absolutley picking up momentum when he scored his 5 point move. I suspect he would have moved on and won the match from their even if he did not get the pin at that point. As mentioned prior, one of Kilgore's greatest strengths is his motor. I have no particular bias towards Kilgore other than he is an OH wrestler.
I would be willing to say that I am more confident that Kilgore would have won regardless of the pin, than I would that D.T would have won if the cradle and pin didn't happen (but I do think David would have pulled it out).
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Discussion Topic: Finals Predictions
Rex Holman added to this discussion on March 20, 2011
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"Working over" gives the impression that one was physically taking it to someone.
Not the case with Kilgore. Foster was wrestling a much smarter match and taking advantage of Kilgore's aggressiveness which leaves him out of position at times. Foster was owning the position battle for the first 4 minutes and then he began showing signs of fatigue which culminated in a huge mistake. It was not because he was physically dominating Kilgore but rather being efficient and taking advantage of opportunities.
Foster got his motor tested and did not pass the Kilgore inspection.
As for Robles, his match highlights that if you develop high acuity skills in only a couple positions and force the match into those positions, then you can go a long way. His situation is unique because he forces the match into positions in which his physicality is dominant. Smart.
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Discussion Topic: Finals Predictions
Jack Muni added to this discussion on March 20, 2011
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Quote from James Kessen's post:
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"Bubba's pin reminded me of the cradel Jaggers hit a few times did during his first run at a national title."
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James, I was thinking the same thing. You're in on a single, then he traps the head and works for the cradle. Vintage Jaggers!
BTW, getting "worked" is what Dake did to Molinaro, not what Foster did to Kilgore.
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Discussion Topic: Finals Predictions
Tommy Rowlands added to this discussion on March 20, 2011
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It seems like I get a 50/50 reaction to everyone I talk to regarding Robles having the upper hand on his opponents.
To me it is simple. I believe the odds of winning the NCAA Championship with one leg are far less likely than the odds of winning the NCAA Championship with 2 legs. Actually, I don't think its even close.
Everyone is quick to talk about his advantages for having a strong upper body and how the environment out there is not foreign to him, but it is to all of his opponents since you can't prepare to wrestle a guy with one leg. What about all of the weaknesses? How does he get out from the bottom? How does he keep his balance? How does he get that go behind? How does he get the leg and finish? How many times to you work on bringing up your trail leg to finish? He doesn't even have a trail leg! The list is ENDLESS.
I like my chances winning the 285 NCAA Tournament with 2 legs as opposed to trying to beat Greg Jones at 184 when I was in college with one leg. I would have been helpless, no matter how many years I had to prepare or adapt. I can't even fathom developing a skill set to compete with the best 184lbers if I had one leg. I know what my advantages would be, but it still doesn't even compare to what my weaknesses would be, not even close.
Robles has created advantages for himself and mitigated his weaknesses. There is no question that he is stronger than his opponents and it is extremely difficult to prepare for him and execute a game plan---all of the being said, the guy has one leg.
His story is incredibly inspirational, I don't think anyone would disagree with that.
To me it is a no brainer, although he does have some advantages being a one legged 125lb wrestler, he is clearly much much more rare than a 125lb NCAA Champion and in my opinion what he achieved is many times more difficult than winning the NCAA's at 125 with two legs.
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Discussion Topic: Finals Predictions
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on March 20, 2011
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Quote from Tommy Rowlands's post:
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"To me it is simple. I believe the odds of winning the NCAA Championship with one leg are far less likely than the odds of winning the NCAA Championship with 2 legs. Actually, I don't think its even close."
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That is true -- but its also true that the percentages of people born with one leg is far less likely than the percentages of being born with two legs.
What is incredible, IMO, about him is that he had the determination COMBINED with the natural athleticism COMBINED with a home environment that pushed him to be great. Even MORE incredible in my mind is that he's only been wrestling for 9 years (started in 9th grade).
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