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Discussion Topic: Matt Stephens over Ian Miller
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on March 7, 2011
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"quick question for jim or another ref:
miller leaves the mat at about the 10:57 point on the video, while his coaches are still arguing the call (meaning before the call has been confirmed, and before stephens has been declared the winner).
what would have been the ramification of this, assuming the refs had decided to wave off the takedown?
would miller have been allowed to return to the mat, in order to continue?
I seem to recall that in the old days, once you left the mat you were done.
not of critical import, but I was just wondering if you could clarify. "
I can say that I did not watch this but in this case the offended wrestler was Miller, not Stephens. If the call were reversed, Stephens would have been called back to continue the match. IOW, he was not done until the issue was solved at the table.
However, had Miller (and his coach) left the mat and additional wrestling were required, he would have been out of luck. The rules require that when additional wrestling is required, the wrestler or coach must be at the mat.
Since I had not noticed this, did Stephens leave prior to having his hand raised? This would be very unusual but I don't feel like watching it again just to see that. The official would not raise his hand until the issue was resolved.
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Discussion Topic: Matt Stephens over Ian Miller
Pat Costilow added to this discussion on March 7, 2011
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FWIW, this is a good a pairing of wrestlers in a state final as I can remember in years. Stephens has been sorely underrated by many for most of his high school career, and was a deserving state champ. Miller is just superlative. I think both are going to be excellent in college.
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Discussion Topic: Matt Stephens over Ian Miller
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on March 7, 2011
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They both need to get much better on the mat as both got ridden hard -- and that area is exploited by the college guys.
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Discussion Topic: Matt Stephens over Ian Miller
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on March 7, 2011
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Brady: stay tuned, for when Tommy speaks, we should ALL listen!!!
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Discussion Topic: Matt Stephens over Ian Miller
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on March 7, 2011
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Discussion Topic: Matt Stephens over Ian Miller
Brian Nicola added to this discussion on March 7, 2011
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After watching again on GOHIO, I'd like to reverse my previous stance. I can't say with any certainty that criteria was met.
It could have been two...but it could just have easily not been.
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Discussion Topic: Matt Stephens over Ian Miller
Lou Demas added to this discussion on March 8, 2011
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I have given this match a lot of thought, I watched this match live and when the Ref awarded 2pts, I disagreed, because just as many other's thought control was not established by what most of us coaches see ref's call though out the year. I do however believe that 2pts should have been awarded.
I think the criteria should read that anytime a wrestler is thrown to his back and has to fight off ( not just a roll though) but a pause in action in which wrestler has to fight off his back, 2 points should be awarded. If the wrestler who is thrown to back scramble's out it's 2-1 if wrestler bridges and but reverses hold, it's 2-2 but if pause on back it's 2pts. In this case even if Stephen's had lost control when then went out of bounds, I think it should have been a 2-1 score with Stephen's winning because they were in overtime.
I could not help but notice that every time a wrestler got thrown at state the crowed cheered in some manner. I think if we scored throws this way, wrestler's might risk throwing more and help us gain a greater fan base. I would go as far to awarded the person who throws 1 point even if he is re-rolled to help popularize our sport. Even if it did not help attract more fan's, I think I would help our wrestler's become more competitive internationally. Most wrestler's in the U.S spend most of their careers not learning how to throw,so we don't have a 3 pt move when needed and our defense is lacking because we are not used to defending throw's.
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Discussion Topic: Matt Stephens over Ian Miller
Roe Fox added to this discussion on March 8, 2011
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"Jim, wrote this., Roe wrote "Little doubt Stephens was in the better position but I would like to know if what Miller had negated any superior control of Stephens". Notice that he used the term "superior control"? If Stephens had control, then it was a take down."
I get the point. I should have said "position" rather than "control" because that is what I meant.
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Discussion Topic: Matt Stephens over Ian Miller
Casey Talbott added to this discussion on March 8, 2011
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jim:
apparently too much time on my hands, so i watched this again.
stephens did not leave the mat before his hand was raised; rather, following initial call he celebrated with his coaches (hugging, etc.) at his corner of the mat, and then returned to the center, awaiting ref.
re miller, initial call was made at 10:28, his coach (george bergman) requested conference by 10:37, miller left center of mat and shook hands of spg coaches at 10:55 and then exited mat from spg corner, and then 15 to 20 seconds later the lead ref returned to the center of mat and declared stephens the winner, via the raising of his hand, at 11:12.
________________
this was clearly a tough call, most notably because the refs have to make it on the spot, and without the benefit of replay, etc.
having the benefit of viewing it a # of times, i just don't see the requisite control, as i think it was still fifty-fifty re who was going to come out on top here, assuming anybody, before they went out of bounds.
but i guess my point is this - even assuming coach bergman had been able to convince the refs to wave off the call (stranger things have happened), then it sounds like miller would have been deemed unable to continue, as he'd already exited the mat.
that probably would have brought the house down...
________________________
again, two very good wrestlers, good match, but a bit disappointing that it ended in controversy...
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Discussion Topic: Matt Stephens over Ian Miller
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on March 8, 2011
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I don't see how anyone can say Stephens was in better position. It looked to me like a arm wrestling match that see-saws back and forth. In hindsight, it's clear control wasn't established. Understood that ref did not have the benefit of replay and respect that he made a tough (albeit an incorrect) call.
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Discussion Topic: Matt Stephens over Ian Miller
Rex Holman added to this discussion on March 8, 2011
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IMO regarding last sequence which determined the match,
Freestyle/Greco
advantage Stephens, 3 pts awarded for taking opponent from feet to back, Stephens wins.
Folkstyle
no such rule exists awarding points in folkstyle
control 50/50, position 50/50 while on the mat,
a wash.
Contributing factors to situation:
1.rule of first points awarded in ot ends the match (Ian reacted when he saw two awarded)
2.referee signaling 2td immediately upon hitting the mat/subjectivity(that is momentary control without time for reaction)
3.mat location(mat placement determines your wrestling options and how you proceed)
4.situation defined by rules yet stated rules do not encapsulate all variables.(rules don't always encompass everything and are sometimes interpreted to the letter vs spirit of the rule.)
That being said Ian should have wrestled through the situation until he was out of bounds in order for Bergman to have a chance at reversal of call.
I realize it is the state finals but quite a teachable moments to absorb for the athlete.
1)Develop better skills off bottom, especially a leg riding defense.
2)Wrestle through the situation if there is any chance at it being an ambiguous call
3)Your choice of top/bottom/neutral carries with it huge implications towards outcome. Strategy should be developed in anticipation of events.
You have a choice to write it off as a bad call, but the adaptive wrestler will separate out the emotion from the actual events and take it as a lesson learned going forward.
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Discussion Topic: Matt Stephens over Ian Miller
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on March 8, 2011
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Rex: Very good analysis of the best way for Miller to approach the outcome.
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Discussion Topic: Matt Stephens over Ian Miller
Lou Demas added to this discussion on March 9, 2011
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I think we really need a more defining criteria for how to score, when one wrestler is in enough control to throw his opponent to his back and then opponent has to fight off back. 50/50 should be a wash but 50/50 is not always a wash due to the fact it is a subjective call, as we had here. A criteria that favors the wrestler who is throwing would help create more fan enjoyment and help us do better internationally. Or if you are a folkstyle purist go the other direction in which the thrower has to break 90 degree's for a 1 or 2 count before awarding points. Of course, I would favor the first option but would be happy with the second option if it took some of the subjectivity out of ref's hands. As it stands now I have seen ref's award no point's for a wrestler who has thrown his opponent to back and held him there for a 2 or even a 3 count and I have also seen this kind of call happen before. A more defining criteria in either direction would help change wrestling for the better!
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