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Discussion Topic: Ohio's All Time College Team
Ethan Moore added to this discussion on February 28, 2011
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Another question: in quantifying excellence, would you prefer the 4X AA or a 1X champ?
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Discussion Topic: Ohio's All Time College Team
Tommy Rowlands added to this discussion on March 1, 2011
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Ethan, I think "excellence" and "what would you rather have" are sometimes two different things. Some 1x champs didn't have near the "body of work" that a 4x AA had.
So to answer your question, in my opinion, I think 4x AA is more excellent, but I think most guys would rather be a 1x Champ.
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Last edited by Tommy Rowlands on March 1, 2011; edited 1 time in total
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Discussion Topic: Ohio's All Time College Team
Tommy Rowlands added to this discussion on March 1, 2011
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Quote from Michael Rodriguez's post:
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Quote from Luke Moore's post:
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"Also, what current high schooler do you see as being able to crack into the "Ohio's greatest" discussion?"
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I really like to hear some of the seasoned college guys opinion on this one. Rex Holman and more recently Tommy Rowlands and Mitch Clark have been posting. I'd love to hear what they think makes a great college prospect."
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Michael, I think a great college prospect can attack both sides of the body, defend solid leg attacks, get out from the bottom, hold a guy down when he needs to, never get tired, and perform at his highest level when the pressure is really on :):):)
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Discussion Topic: Ohio's All Time College Team
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on March 1, 2011
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Quote from Tommy Rowlands's post:
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"Michael, I think a great college prospect can attack both sides of the body, defend solid leg attacks, get out from the bottom, hold a guy down when he needs to, never get tired, and perform at his highest level when the pressure is really on :):):)"
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In that case, there are VERY few great college prospects in any given years. Most prospects are suspect in one or more of those areas. You forgot the academic ability -- if you can't handle the academics, you are not any help to the program.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio's All Time College Team
Tommy Rowlands added to this discussion on March 1, 2011
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brady, agree. if great college prospects were abundant, recruiting would be easy.
as for academics, i also agree. that could be lumped into one category called "no baggage".
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Discussion Topic: Ohio's All Time College Team
Rex Holman added to this discussion on March 1, 2011
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Quote from Ethan Moore's post:
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"Another question: in quantifying excellence, would you prefer the 4X AA or a 1X champ?"
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IMO, the answer is dependent upon the motivation of coach, athlete or ranker. Specifically how one thinks about a given subject
As an athlete, the achievement is symbolic of the large amount preparation, sacrifice and effort.
The placement states the end which was accomplished.
The goal of the high level wrestler is to win the tournament. There is a legitimate shot at doing so if they are adequately prepared. Increased preparedness correlates into increased likelihood.
There is only one title at each weight. So, only one guy gets the prize and you have to be near flawless to complete the task.
So, what you have differentiating the 4x AA v the 1x champ is one guy came really close to having a great tournament 4x versus the guy that did. However, the 1x champ was further off the target on other occasions.
So, that does not really settle anything because you canot reconcile the two. It is an argument of consistency w/ near excellence versus a 1x excellence. Quantifying both of those diminishes the value.
That being said, our culture is weighted heavily in favor of the guy that wins it all.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio's All Time College Team
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on March 1, 2011
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Quote from Tommy Rowlands's post:
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"...So to answer your question, in my opinion, I think 4x AA is more excellent, but I think most guys would rather be a 1x Champ."
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That.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio's All Time College Team
Tommy Rowlands added to this discussion on March 1, 2011
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Fun Fact (So I Have Been Told Many Times By Multiple Sources, Maybe Someone On Here Can Verify):
There are more 2x NCAA Champions than 4x NCAA All-Americans.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio's All Time College Team
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on March 1, 2011
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Tom and others:
I did research a few months ago on Ohio collegiate D1 AA's to determine which teams had produced the greatest number of AA's. Obviously the answer was St Eds (49AA honors since 1980) with Walsh a distant second. One of the biggest surprises to me was that of the 21 St Eds wrestlers that earned these 49 AA honors, only four were one timers. The rest were multiple placers. And only four different St Eds wrestlers won NCAA titles. In other words, it was as common for a St Eds wrestler to win the title as it was for him to be a one time AA.
Conclusion--most AA caliber kids show this ability early in their collegiate careers. I don't have the statistics to prove it, but I bet that one time AA's are a relatively rare thing. Think about the recent history of Ohio State star wrestling graduates.
J.D.--3x AA
Tommy R--4x AA
Lance--4x AA
Reece--2x AA
Mike P--3x AA
Jags--3x AA
Randleman 3x AA
Holman 2 x AA
Clark 2x AA
j. Clark 2x AA
Randleman 3x AA
Coleman 2x AA
Sessely 3 x AA
Yetts 2x AA
Disabato 3x AA
The only guys I recall as 1x AA's--Ratliff and Kaplan.
I'm not sure about Shyck, Nutter and Becks.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio's All Time College Team
Ben Golden added to this discussion on March 1, 2011
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Tommy,
I don't know about all time (couldn't find an all-time list of NCAA Champs that was sorted in a way that made it easy to see how many times they did it), but here is a look at everyone who wrestled at least one year in the 2000-2010 decade.
4x All-Americans (FINISHED):
Stephen Abas 1998-2002
Ben Askren 2004-2007
Luke Becker 2000-2003
Ryan Bertin 2002-2005
Phil Davis 2005-2008
Angel Escobedo 2007-2010
Gregor Gillespie 2006-2009
Damion Hahn 2001-2004
Sam Hazewinkel 2004-2007
Johny Hendricks 2004-2007
Jake Herbert 2005-2009
Joe Heskett 1999-2002
Eric Juergens 1998-2001
Cole Konrad 2004-2007
Josh Koscheck 1999-2002
Eric Larkin 1999-2003
Jared Lawrence 2000-2003
Travis Lee 2002-2005
Tyrone Lewis 2001-2004
Michael Lightner 1998-2001
Dustin Manotti 2003-2006
Steve Mocco 2002-2006
Jayson Ness 2007-2010
Troy Nickerson 2006, 07, 09, 10
Lance Palmer 2007-2010
Jake Percival 2002-2005
Mark Perry 2005-2008
Don Pritzlaff 1998-2001
Jake Rosholt 2003-2006
Tommy Rowlands 2001-2004
Cael Sanderson 1999-2002
Coleman Scott 2005-2008
Nick Simmons 2003-2007
Eric Tannenbaum 2005-2008
Johnny Thompson 2001-2004
Jake Varner 2007-2010
Teyon Ware 2003-2006
2x NCAA Champions (NOT FINISHED):
Stephen Abas (3)
Ben Askren (2)
Ryan Bertin (2)
Damion Hahn (2)
Johny Hendricks (2)
Jake Herbert (2)
J Jaggers (2)
Eric Juergens (2)
Cole Konrad (2)
Travis Lee (2)
Brent Metcalf (2)
Steve Mocco (2)
Stephen Neal (2)
Chris Pendleton (2)
Mark Perry (2)
Don Pritzlaff (2)
Jake Rosholt (3)
Tommy Rowlands (2)
Cael Sanderson (4)
Johnny Thompson (2)
Matt Valenti (2)
Jake Varner (2)
Teyon Ware (2)
T.J. Williams (2)
I'll have to finish this later. If anyone knows of any more 2x champs in that time frame, please post them.
I'd like to point out how cruel 2010 was to Ohio. Injuries cost at least two and maybe three Ohioans 4x AA status: Dustin Schlatter, Mike Pucillo and maybe Mike Miller.
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Last edited by Ben Golden on March 1, 2011; edited 1 time in total
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Discussion Topic: Ohio's All Time College Team
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on March 1, 2011
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Am I right that some of these names could pull double duty???
Cael Sanderson (1-1-1-1) and Tommy Rowlands (2-1-6-1) are two that come to mind that fall under both, correct?
How are we distinguishing between those that fall under both and those that just fall under the one?
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Discussion Topic: Ohio's All Time College Team
Tommy Rowlands added to this discussion on March 1, 2011
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Ben, I'll be interested to see the total. Frosh AA's is more commonplace now than it was back in the day.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio's All Time College Team
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on March 1, 2011
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Quote from Tommy Rowlands's post:
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"Ben, I'll be interested to see the total. Frosh AA's is more commonplace now than it was back in the day."
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What are some reasons thank you think have led to this?
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Discussion Topic: Ohio's All Time College Team
Patrick Campbell added to this discussion on March 1, 2011
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Quote from Mark Niemann's post:
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Quote from Tommy Rowlands's post:
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"Ben, I'll be interested to see the total. Frosh AA's is more commonplace now than it was back in the day."
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What are some reasons thank you think have led to this?"
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Excellent HS coaching by 4x Sectional Qualifiers... :-D
All kidding aside, I do think the level of HS coaches has dramatically improved. When I was in HS, I was coached by a guy that never wrestled. Now, my HS team is coached by a former D1 college wrestler (I won't mention any names...Brady Hiatt). That raises the bar a lot.
Secondly, I was fortunate to be able to wrestle extra workouts over at the garage and be able to travel and wrestle a lot during the summer months. That was not as common for most wrestlers back then. It paid big dividends for me...and believe me, I am barely an average athelete at best. Now, there are tons of places to get in extra workouts. Far more camp opportunities, and a lot of guys are wrestling all year long. Gees, these kids now are wrestling more matches in 1 year, than a lot of us wrestled in all of Jr High and HS combined.
Those things definately equate to much better prepared college freshman compared to 20 years ago. Just my $0.02.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio's All Time College Team
Ben Golden added to this discussion on March 1, 2011
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Quote from Tommy Rowlands's post:
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"Ben, I'll be interested to see the total. Frosh AA's is more commonplace now than it was back in the day."
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Well, wrestlingstats.com has all of the 4x AA's (from a very long time ago through 2009) listed quite nicely, so I just had to add Palmer, Ness, Escobedo, Varner, and Nickerson:
http://wrestlingstats.com/aa/view_4xaasI.php
They also have all the NCAA Champs organized a few different ways, but I can't figure out a good way to view them by the number of times they won it. That's why I was keeping it more recent.
I'll see if I can figure it out, though.
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