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Discussion Topic: Rep. Jim Jordan
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on February 24, 2011
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Quote from Bill Watson's post:
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"I don't think a huge amount of black people voted for Obama because he is black, but some did. I myself am not black, but my childhood next door neighbor isa black man, whom I view as a grandfather figure . The reason I say this is because he told me that his barber ridiculed him for voting for Mccain, and it upset him.
Furthermore, I 100% agree with your stance on being raised to vote a certain way. My dad works at an oil refinery and doesn't think there is a bad republican or a good democrat. So I can directly relate to what your saying. However had it not been for cap and trade, I would have voted for Obama. I work as an.engineer at a coal fired power.plant so it meant a lot to me.
PS ...What do you think of the.healthcare plan? I myself would like to see.it set up the same as.car insurance. Protection from major damage but the small stuff is.on you. I think it would force Americans to live a healthier life style and make sure all Americans got everything serious fixed"
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Bill, you are sadly mistaken. Just as most blacks thought O.J. was innocent only because he was black, his alleged color was the primary reason most blacks voted for and support Obama.
Is that understandable? Perhaps. But it sure seems to be how it was/is. Why else do you think Obama played up being black, or at least certainly did not prohibit his camp from portrying him that way even though he was genetically as much white as black, and environmentally was raised much more white than he was black.
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Discussion Topic: Rep. Jim Jordan
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on February 24, 2011
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I am not against Senate Bill 5 -- but grass is always greener on the other side. Those that don't teach, think I have the easiest job in the world.
As to the last line in the editorial, my teacing salary doesn't put me into in a privileged status -- not even close (although I am privildged to work with kids daily).
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Discussion Topic: Rep. Jim Jordan
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on February 24, 2011
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Quote from Brady Hiatt's post:
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"
I am not against Senate Bill 5 -- but grass is always greener on the other side. Those that don't teach, think I have the easiest job in the world.
As to the last line in the editorial, my teacing salary doesn't put me into in a privileged status -- not even close (although I am privildged to work with kids daily)."
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As the husband of a teacher and father of two kids who are Education majors I completely agree with you.
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Discussion Topic: Rep. Jim Jordan
Bill Watson added to this discussion on February 24, 2011
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Quote from Gary Sommers's post:
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"
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Quote from Brady Hiatt's post:
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"
I am not against Senate Bill 5 -- but grass is always greener on the other side. Those that don't teach, think I have the easiest job in the world.
As to the last line in the editorial, my teacing salary doesn't put me into in a privileged status -- not even close (although I am privildged to work with kids daily)."
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As the husband of a teacher and father of two kids who are Education majors I completely agree with you."
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I don't teach, but I have a few close friends that do and coach wrestling. As with the energy industry I work in teachers are treated the same way. What I mean is lack of merit pay, granted getting more education makes us more money, but what about results? I'd be in favor of teachers having a set salary and getting bonuses on student performance.
Some may say "but that will have teachers teach to the test"... so what, if the test requires critical thinking and problem solving and a tough cirriculum isn't that a good thing? Nuclear Power plants enact this method, the closer you perform the unit to theoretical efficiency the bigger bonus you get. In the end everyone is motivated by money and everyone wins.
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Discussion Topic: Rep. Jim Jordan
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on February 24, 2011
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Quote from Bill Watson's post:
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"
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Quote from Gary Sommers's post:
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"
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Quote from Brady Hiatt's post:
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"
I am not against Senate Bill 5 -- but grass is always greener on the other side. Those that don't teach, think I have the easiest job in the world.
As to the last line in the editorial, my teacing salary doesn't put me into in a privileged status -- not even close (although I am privildged to work with kids daily)."
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As the husband of a teacher and father of two kids who are Education majors I completely agree with you."
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I don't teach, but I have a few close friends that do and coach wrestling. As with the energy industry I work in teachers are treated the same way. What I mean is lack of merit pay, granted getting more education makes us more money, but what about results? I'd be in favor of teachers having a set salary and getting bonuses on student performance.
Some may say "but that will have teachers teach to the test"... so what, if the test requires critical thinking and problem solving and a tough cirriculum isn't that a good thing? Nuclear Power plants enact this method, the closer you perform the unit to theoretical efficiency the bigger bonus you get. In the end everyone is motivated by money and everyone wins."
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Bill, I am not so sure. While I suppose everyone is to some extent, I don't think teachers are particularly motivated by money. I know they need it to some extent, and would certainly appreciate being rewarded for what they achieve, but in most cases if teachers were motivated by money they would not have gone into Education.
My two children who are interested in teaching, and my wife for that matter, certainly are not. Now I have two other children who are much moreso, and never gave teaching a thought.
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Discussion Topic: Rep. Jim Jordan
Roe Fox added to this discussion on February 24, 2011
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I'm absolutely with Bill on some sort of advancement based on productivity for teachers. As far as motivation due to money, that is probably a personal issue with each teacher.
One thing I know for a fact: the state of public education is abysmal. We do not provide our teachers or motivated students with an environment to succeed. Those that live in hudson, Beachwood, Indian Hills, Dublin, Upper Arlington, Bexley, etc. may be the few rarities. As far as urban schools we short change our kids by not expecting more and allowing the punks that don't want to be there stay there.
They ruin it for the good teachers and motivated students.
Oh, and we should do away with gym class and make kids play on organized teams after school. Every day. Each season.
I wonder what Rep. Jordan thinks.
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Discussion Topic: Rep. Jim Jordan
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on February 24, 2011
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Quote from Roe Fox's post:
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"...
Oh, and we should do away with gym class and make kids play on organized teams after school. Every day. Each season.
I wonder what Rep. Jordan thinks."
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Can't do away with gym teachers. Or ANY teachers for that matter. Numbers = power/leverage with unions.
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Discussion Topic: Rep. Jim Jordan
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on February 24, 2011
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Quote from Roe Fox's post:
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"I'm absolutely with Bill on some sort of advancement based on productivity for teachers. As far as motivation due to money, that is probably a personal issue with each teacher.
One thing I know for a fact: the state of public education is abysmal. We do not provide our teachers or motivated students with an environment to succeed. Those that live in hudson, Beachwood, Indian Hills, Dublin, Upper Arlington, Bexley, etc. may be the few rarities. As far as urban schools we short change our kids by not expecting more and allowing the punks that don't want to be there stay there.
They ruin it for the good teachers and motivated students.
Oh, and we should do away with gym class and make kids play on organized teams after school. Every day. Each season.
I wonder what Rep. Jordan thinks."
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Roe, sure it is a personal issue for each, but who in the world goes into teaching for the money? There are plenty of other rewards, but money is really not one of them.
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Discussion Topic: Rep. Jim Jordan
Roe Fox added to this discussion on February 24, 2011
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Uh oh, I've woken the sleeping giant.
Those who can, do. Those who can't teach (just kidding).
But the reality is that you can do four years as an average student, get out and earn about $30,000. Then, at the school district (taxpayer) cost, get a masters in a less than rigorous curriculum (relatively speaking) and immediately get a bump to between $40,000-50,000.
Then retire at about 55 with a full pension. And be a starter at a local golf course, paint houses, etc. for extra cash. Oh, and don't forget you only work nine months a year when you are active. And have a couple periods off durong the day. And can't work more than X hours a day (whatever their collectively bargained contract says). If you teach in the summer you get a little extra bump.
Not a bad gig.
Don't get me wrong. I absolutely would agree to pay teachers $80,000-100,000/year if the performance was there. If I were governor I would throw out collectively bargaining and ask for a one time permanent tax increase (even though I am a conservative) to raise the teachers' salaries to unprecendented levels on the condition we had measurable goals to meet.
But the reality is that the teachers' unuion doesn't want that.
It is maybe the singular most important vocation. I also think we need to weed out the bad seeds so they can do their jobs. But don't pretend it isn't a great gig under the current state of affairs. It is.
Your retort is expected but my position is based on fact, not conjecture. I have close relatives who are teachers. They think the same, though of course they are older. The new crop is just happy to have jobs.
There is not much I wouldn't pay to have my children, one of whom is very developmentally disabled, educated at the proper level.
Maybe I'll see some of you tomorrow night at Firestone. The Winking Lizard in Fairlawn at West Market and Ghent is a nice place to grab a brew after.
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Discussion Topic: Rep. Jim Jordan
Lou Demas added to this discussion on February 24, 2011
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Quote from Bill Watson's post:
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"Racism itself is a form of ignorance, therefore lack of education is typically a reason for ignorance. I think a lot of people who are racist lose this in the military because they intact become educated on different cultures. I myself knew very little about the italian culture until I married my wife. I think that at the very least has validity.
After reading my post I see how you interpreted it that way,and that wasn't my intention. I apologize, however I still don't understand how more of a race makes for fewer racist people. As hispanics continue to enter the country in large numbers I doubt the people who are racist against them before are suddenly less racist towards them.
I hold firm to my opinion that with better education, less emphasizing on race, and a group effort racism can be further reduced. That said, there will always be stupid people and therefore some.people will.always feel a need to be superior, for a reason as trivial as skin pigment."
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Bill,
Yes, racism is a form of ignorance but in general it is a learned form of ignorance. Little kids play with other little kids of any color just for the sake of play, someone has to teach them to be a racist.
In regards to would millions of the black children killed though abortions help lessen racism, well did you having a black neighbor who you regarded as a grandfather help mold your healthy racial outlook? When millions black children are killed how many other little white kids did not learn to be color blind because they did not have a black neighbor. Do millions of Mexicans help lower racism? I would say yes, I had two highs school coaches that where Mexican, in the Marine Corp I served with many hispanics , one of my best friend was Dominican. If we did not have millions of people of hispanic decent here,my interactions may have been very few. Had wife been one of those million's of black children killed though abortion, my son would have been here. I have seen white kids walk up to my son with their parents, who looked as country red neck as they come and ask him to show their kids how to do his ankle pick. His little taking the time to show an ankle pick helps kids learn healthy racial attitudes. That interaction even helps his racial attitude, when he sees someone wearing a cowboy hat, boots and a big belt buckle, he does not equate someone being a red neck as racist.
Hope that made my thoughts on this clearer.
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Discussion Topic: Rep. Jim Jordan
Lou Demas added to this discussion on February 25, 2011
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This might interest some in regards to education reform:
John Taylor Gatto talked about his book Weapons of Mass Instruction: A Schoolteacher's Journey Through the Dark World of Compulsory Schooling (New Society Publishers; October 1, 2008). In the book he discusses compulsory schooling that he says cripples the imagination and discourages critical thinking. He also argues that spending a fortune on college tuition doesn't necessarily lead to acquiring an education. He responded to questions from audience members. This program of the Free State Project's 2009 New Hampshire Liberty Forum was held at 4:00 p.m. on Saturday, March 7, 2009, John Gatto was a teacher in New York Public Schools for almost three decades. He was named New York City Teacher of the Year three times, and in 1991, New York State Teacher of the Year. He is the author of Dumbing Us Down: The Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling; The Exhausted School: The First National Grassroots Speakout on the Right to School Choice; and The Underground History of American Education: A Schoolteacher's Intimate Investigation into the Problem of Modern Schooling.
Here is link to cspan book interview he did:
http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/284691-2
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Discussion Topic: Rep. Jim Jordan
Bill Watson added to this discussion on February 25, 2011
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While I agree with the fundametals of what you said your not realizing that some red necks and some blacks that would have been born would have been on the other side of the spectrum. Your son is blessed with a few things I feel cripple racism, education (even wrestling knowledge falls under this), good family ( how many kids that end up in prison wouldnt had their father been as active in their lives as you?), healthy interaction ( there is nothing better for racism than sports, period in my eyes).
Im not saying Josh is in prison without his parents but I am saying that you played a larger role in his success than you think. Had my dad not pressured me to go to law school, I'd never went and recieved my MBA to shut him up. He molded me into who I am, as did my mother. My point is that kids NEED family, at 27 I'd like to start one myself, but now that my wife began teaching college classes we have put that on hold because of a lack of time. What Im trying to tie this into is that most of those kids that were aborted didnt have that. I think, with 100% of my heart that the mothers should have seen if they could have found someone to adopt that baby. If my wife and I cant get pregnant I'd adopt (BOY) of any race, and yes Im biased I'll admit that. Under that situation racism would fall but not if they are merely born and don't recieve the love they need. In all I like your core arguement, but we forget the role older people play in our lives too often, remember what you said about the fact that George played a significant role in the fact that I hate racist people, without him I may be indifferent on the subject. All in all, more people isn't what we need, more good people is.
I researched healthcare reform in my final paper at Akron for my MBA in Finance. The biggest weakness I found was that roughly 40 percent of healthcare costs come from Dr visits and the paper work associated with it. By this I mean coding, insurance billing ect and the visit. The Doctors recieve a low portion of this in reality. Of the 100 dollars for a visit they get a mere 60% for doing all the work. Why not tell them under a reform this, 75 bucks for an office visit, family and specialists. Paid directly by the patient no additional work required. On average Americans go to the doctor 5 times a year. 425 bucks, that under 40 a month, I pay more for insurance now. Then the goivernment picks up all the rest with the patient having another deductable based on community service. I say this because it will first do well for society, second permit people who cant afford it to in reality earn an extra income and lastly collect a tax on those who can buy them paying the premium. The premium is adjusted yearly to keep the amount of people deciding to do both choices in a location the government feels is acceptable. If you don't take regular office visits, your premiums are on a different scale than if you do, this basically makes preventing problems profitable and keeps people from just skipping routine visits.
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Discussion Topic: Rep. Jim Jordan
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on February 25, 2011
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Roe, I am not saying teacning is a bad gig at all. If I thought that I would have tried to discourage my children, though if form would have held they would have ignored me anyway. :)
But I just don't think you go into it 'for the money.' That is what attorneys do, isn't it? :)
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Discussion Topic: Rep. Jim Jordan
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on February 25, 2011
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I do not think most teachers go into the field for the money.
But I will say that, along the way, setting themselves up for the future, does become a priority. And I'm not saying that that is necessarily a bad thing, I'm just saying what I've observed.
Somewhere along the way, I think teachers learn to pick their battles. Early on, it is about learning the system (what does my principal want, what's most effective for lessons, how do I set my classroom up for success) and trying to make that difference in a child or even childrens' lives. After the system is learned, that obstacle is replaced by figuring out how to position their future while making a difference.
Certain issues bring up certain priorities... You talk about class size, it seems to be about focusing on the child's education. If you mention lesson plans and field trips, again, exposure for educating. You start talking benefits, pensions and retirement, now it's about the teacher. I think a clear distinction can and should be made.
Personally, I don't like merit pay for teachers. They are people and they will learn how to work the numbers. It's just the way it is.
I think our education system has become more of free baby-sitting in some areas. Add in free breakfast and lunch; before, after and after-after school programs and kids become wards of the state UNTIL the parent can recognize the ability for that kid to be used as a pawn for the parent to receive money. Not sure of the percentage is made up by that description but I've heard about it (firsthand) way to often.
Just sayin'.
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Discussion Topic: Rep. Jim Jordan
Bill Watson added to this discussion on February 25, 2011
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Quote from Gary Sommers's post:
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"
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Quote from Bill Watson's post:
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"I don't think a huge amount of black people voted for Obama because he is black, but some did. I myself am not black, but my childhood next door neighbor isa black man, whom I view as a grandfather figure . The reason I say this is because he told me that his barber ridiculed him for voting for Mccain, and it upset him.
Furthermore, I 100% agree with your stance on being raised to vote a certain way. My dad works at an oil refinery and doesn't think there is a bad republican or a good democrat. So I can directly relate to what your saying. However had it not been for cap and trade, I would have voted for Obama. I work as an.engineer at a coal fired power.plant so it meant a lot to me.
PS ...What do you think of the.healthcare plan? I myself would like to see.it set up the same as.car insurance. Protection from major damage but the small stuff is.on you. I think it would force Americans to live a healthier life style and make sure all Americans got everything serious fixed"
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Bill, you are sadly mistaken. Just as most blacks thought O.J. was innocent only because he was black, his alleged color was the primary reason most blacks voted for and support Obama.
Is that understandable? Perhaps. But it sure seems to be how it was/is. Why else do you think Obama played up being black, or at least certainly did not prohibit his camp from portrying him that way even though he was genetically as much white as black, and environmentally was raised much more white than he was black."
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I disagree on your OJ comment. I read Christopher Dardens book "In contempt", which is a great read by the way. In this he breaks down that a lot of black people thought that if OJ got away with something it was ok, because of the persecution people in his time frame took. Then Darden explains why he hates that people feel that way and even how he feels about race in general.
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