|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: OSU - Iowa
Alex Creech added to this discussion on January 25, 2011
|
Here's a different twist on things. I hear alot about how Ryan should focus more on in-state talent, and while I generally agree with that, here's the flip side. Of all the guys who have left the program recently (3 this year alone), all of them I believe were Ohio guys.
I think we need to exclude David Taylor in the missed column, he was never an "Ohio" guy and was always going to go where Cael was. So, at the time Ryan was recruiting, who exactly has he missed out on? Jamie Clark maybe? I think Ryan has done fine getting Ohio talent, the argument could be made that it's just the wrong Ohio guys.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: OSU - Iowa
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on January 25, 2011
|
Alex: Interesting perspective. But wouldn't that be a knock on the Buckeye recruiting process? Why is Virginia Tech doing a good job of recruiting productive kids from Ohio while Ohio State (with it's seeming recruiting advantage over all other programs when it comes to landing in-state talent) struggles in this regard?
I don't want to bash the Bucks ad infinitum. I am rooting for them and really hope that the current group improves as the season wears on.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: OSU - Iowa
Rex Holman added to this discussion on January 25, 2011
|
Fred-
Thanks for the rule regarding at which weight to start.
Tom Brands did everything he could to give his wrestler Jansenn a shot at beating Colt. It was in Iowa @ Carver-Hawkeye with a crowd of at least 8000 Iowa fans. Brands was using the very real mechanism of team momentum and crowd influence to increase the response out of his wrestler and negatively influence Colt. "score one point and you can bring the house down" -Tom Brands. If you can say with a straight face that environment does not benefit or give advantage to a wrestler, then there is nothing more to talk about.
I mentioned shenanigans because Tom Brands goal for the meet was to win every match and shut out the Buckeyes and he would consider different means to accomplish that goal.
IMO, starting at 184 was the perfect way to do that. I will speak in terms of probability. The Bucks were likeliest to win two matches, Colt and Heflin. These wrestlers were at the very end of the dual meet. I would say the Colt match was 50/50 based upon that environment and Heflin was a slight underdog 55/45. Those guys had to watch their teammates get beat down in front of a hostile crowd, which sucks and does not make you feel great. A win by Jansen is huge in that it affects seeding at the Big 10 and solidifies his confidence that he is a potential AA. Heflin has no Carver-Hawkeye experience and this match has huge post season implications as Ethan Lofthouse is an AA candidate as well and the two will very likely meet again at Big 10s and potentially nationals(btw Heflin did a good job even in losing as he was the pace setter, albeit a slow pace, which Lofthouse respected)
I don't know how 184 was decided upon. It was one of two scenarios, which make sense to me. Brands suggested it and gave some paltry reason (hiding his true intentions)or it was a blind draw. If it were a blind draw. I would have checked the pieces of paper afterward to make sure they did not all have 184 written on them.
I remember my first time in Gallagher-Iba arena and the student band was set up right behind our bench. That was by design.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: OSU - Iowa
Alex Creech added to this discussion on January 25, 2011
|
|
Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
|
|
"Alex: Interesting perspective. But wouldn't that be a knock on the Buckeye recruiting process? Why is Virginia Tech doing a good job of recruiting productive kids from Ohio while Ohio State (with it's seeming recruiting advantage over all other programs when it comes to landing in-state talent) struggles in this regard?
I don't want to bash the Bucks ad infinitum. I am rooting for them and really hope that the current group improves as the season wears on."
|
Yes, it would be a knock on recruiting, and Ryan has acknowledged that. I think starting with this incoming class, we'll see if they have gotten better at picking the right ones.
On a side topic, I certainly drink my OSU koolaid, I just don't spike it. :)
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: OSU - Iowa
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on January 25, 2011
|
Nothing wrong with the Kool Aid. Lately, however, it's been necessary to add vodka.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: OSU - Iowa
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on January 25, 2011
|
|
Quote from Rex Holman's post:
|
|
"Fred-
Thanks for the rule regarding at which weight to start.
Tom Brands did everything he could to give his wrestler Jansenn a shot at beating Colt. It was in Iowa @ Carver-Hawkeye with a crowd of at least 8000 Iowa fans. Brands was using the very real mechanism of team momentum and crowd influence to increase the response out of his wrestler and negatively influence Colt. "score one point and you can bring the house down" -Tom Brands. If you can say with a straight face that environment does not benefit or give advantage to a wrestler, then there is nothing more to talk about.
I mentioned shenanigans because Tom Brands goal for the meet was to win every match and shut out the Buckeyes and he would consider different means to accomplish that goal.
IMO, starting at 184 was the perfect way to do that. I will speak in terms of probability. The Bucks were likeliest to win two matches, Colt and Heflin. These wrestlers were at the very end of the dual meet. I would say the Colt match was 50/50 based upon that environment and Heflin was a slight underdog 55/45. Those guys had to watch their teammates get beat down in front of a hostile crowd, which sucks and does not make you feel great. A win by Jansen is huge in that it affects seeding at the Big 10 and solidifies his confidence that he is a potential AA. Heflin has no Carver-Hawkeye experience and this match has huge post season implications as Ethan Lofthouse is an AA candidate as well and the two will very likely meet again at Big 10s and potentially nationals(btw Heflin did a good job even in losing as he was the pace setter, albeit a slow pace, which Lofthouse respected)
I don't know how 184 was decided upon. It was one of two scenarios, which make sense to me. Brands suggested it and gave some paltry reason (hiding his true intentions)or it was a blind draw. If it were a blind draw. I would have checked the pieces of paper afterward to make sure they did not all have 184 written on them.
I remember my first time in Gallagher-Iba arena and the student band was set up right behind our bench. That was by design."
|
Sounds like he did exactly what a coach is supposed to do. Should he have coached with the intention of losing any matches? Who does that?
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: OSU - Iowa
Rex Holman added to this discussion on January 25, 2011
|
Gary-
Actually the point of contention was shenanigans which achieve an end. Much like what you do.
I would not put it past Brands to lie or stuff a ballot box if it accomplished an end and that end being winning.
I don't think those means mentioned reflect sportsmanship. An intent to win with lack of sportsmanship could be construed as a shenanigan. Is that argument tight enough?
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: OSU - Iowa
Bill Watson added to this discussion on January 25, 2011
|
|
Quote from Alex Creech's post:
|
|
"Here's a different twist on things. I hear alot about how Ryan should focus more on in-state talent, and while I generally agree with that, here's the flip side. Of all the guys who have left the program recently (3 this year alone), all of them I believe were Ohio guys.
I think we need to exclude David Taylor in the missed column, he was never an "Ohio" guy and was always going to go where Cael was. So, at the time Ryan was recruiting, who exactly has he missed out on? Jamie Clark maybe? I think Ryan has done fine getting Ohio talent, the argument could be made that it's just the wrong Ohio guys."
|
Alex I was thinking the same thing.... who has Ohio State really missed on? No Jamie Clark, but we don't have a need at light weight, and no Phillips but doesn't Garcia make up for that?
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: OSU - Iowa
Jim Kessen added to this discussion on January 25, 2011
|
|
Quote from Bill Watson's post:
|
|
"
|
Quote from Alex Creech's post:
|
|
"Here's a different twist on things. I hear alot about how Ryan should focus more on in-state talent, and while I generally agree with that, here's the flip side. Of all the guys who have left the program recently (3 this year alone), all of them I believe were Ohio guys.
I think we need to exclude David Taylor in the missed column, he was never an "Ohio" guy and was always going to go where Cael was. So, at the time Ryan was recruiting, who exactly has he missed out on? Jamie Clark maybe? I think Ryan has done fine getting Ohio talent, the argument could be made that it's just the wrong Ohio guys."
|
Alex I was thinking the same thing.... who has Ohio State really missed on? No Jamie Clark, but we don't have a need at light weight, and no Phillips but doesn't Garcia make up for that?"
|
I think there are some guys that you could make an argument for now but maybe not when they came out of High School i.e. J. Dong 157, M. Stephens 149, C. Wade 285. and maybe a few others.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: OSU - Iowa
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on January 25, 2011
|
|
Quote from Rex Holman's post:
|
|
"Gary-
Actually the point of contention was shenanigans which achieve an end. Much like what you do.
I would not put it past Brands to lie or stuff a ballot box if it accomplished an end and that end being winning.
I don't think those means mentioned reflect sportsmanship. An intent to win with lack of sportsmanship could be construed as a shenanigan. Is that argument tight enough?"
|
Rex, personal attacks aside, I asked earlier if starting at 184 broke any rules. Never received a direct response, so I will take that to mean none were broken and no one was willing to admit that.
That being the case, how/why do you call that 'shenanigans'? You can 'construe' all you want, but if no rules were broken then Brands was doing nothing more than advocating for his team. I ask again, you want a coach who is not trying to win each and every match?
And, by the way, I don't think Brands or Iowa made up the term 'home court advantage', or invented the concept.
Rex, I realize you were a helluva wrestler, but my Lord.........
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: OSU - Iowa
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on January 25, 2011
|
Regarding recruiting...
I suppose Kilgore, Ian Miller, Jedd Moore, Nick Sulzer, Nick Brascetta, both Thomusseits and Huston Evans (who has already committed to Virginia Tech) could also be mentioned. Missing on Miller hurts when you consider that the Bucks pressed very hard for McCauley and were spurred last minute. Did they miss on Miller in part because of their pursuit of McCauley? I don't know...
But in fairness to Coach Ryan, there are always factors involved in recruiting of which we are unaware. We don't know the grades nor whether or not there are obvious character issues.
Bottom line--when the team performs well, we're all chanting OH--IO and when it's not, we're on forums venting our frustrations.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: OSU - Iowa
Patrick Campbell added to this discussion on January 25, 2011
|
|
Quote from Rex Holman's post:
|
|
"Gary-
Actually the point of contention was shenanigans which achieve an end. Much like what you do.
"
|
Best line ever on this forum!!
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: OSU - Iowa
Ben Golden added to this discussion on January 25, 2011
|
Add Chris Honeycutt to that list, too.
It's crazy when you think back to Ryan's first recruiting class when he landed John Weakley, who was considered by many to be better recruit than both Kilgore and Honeycutt. Four years later and Kilgore and Honeycutt both have excellent shots at making the NCAA finals.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: OSU - Iowa
Luke Moore added to this discussion on January 25, 2011
|
Being a central Ohio coach, I applaud Rayn for what he has done in his time here. He does a great job of promoting his program and getting interest to the high school wrestlers and coaches in the area. Not a lot of coaches have the outreach that is seen by Coach Ryan.
On the coaching side, it is hard for me to criticize him and his staff. The resume speaks for itself. As far as this season goes, the injuries are truly brutal. Any program that loses the talent they have lost would have a hard time bouncing back. They have had to throw some guys to the wolves so far this season, and in fairness to some of these guys, they have done about as good as they could.
I will definitely agree that Spons has not shown a ton of improvement, however, this young man has been ranked as high as 2nd in the nation and lost in the round of 12, so its not like his career has been a failure. Despite 1 bad tournament, he has been regarded as one of the nations best throughout his career. I truly hope he can achieve that goal this season.
I completely agree with Kirk on the mat wrestling. Something has to happen from the bottom position. If I saw 1 more failed granby from Capone on Sunday, I was turning it off. If you watch Penn State, their whole team explodes into a rump up stand up and is out in about :20. They make it look easy.
On the recruiting side, I know some Ohio guys have been missed, but we have to think about the money. A fully funded D1 program gets 9.9 scholarships. To say they did not have a lot of that money tied up in Bergman, Palmer, Jaggers, Pucillo, etc. for the past few year would be crazy. Heading into this year, I am sure Jameson, Spons, Nemec, Palmer, Stieber were all receiving tons of $ which makes it hard to go out and sign new guys. A high school senior hears the "Cha-ching" and thats where they go. And I can't understand why the recruiting class coming next year is being overlooked!!!
Am I still typing.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: OSU - Iowa
Jack Muni added to this discussion on January 25, 2011
|
Speaking of injuries, has anyone heard the status of Andrew Howe? If he can't go by Big Tens, 165 is wide open. Even if he returns, will he be 100%?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
