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Discussion Topic: OSU - Iowa
Patrick Campbell added to this discussion on January 23, 2011
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Quote from Mark Niemann's post:
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"I was in the room last thursday. Not only is he pushing them, they are pushing themselves.
I didn't talk to any of them on a personal level, but watching them, it appears that no one is happy about the current situation.
I watched Nick Heflin stay after for 20mins or so doing one thing: getting in the best position to finish a double. He and Pucillo probably did 20 or 30 doubles a piece to get it right.
That doesn't sound like a kid that is okay with not "getting" the next level."
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Good stuff Mark!
Again, you gotta be careful about your assumptions about college wrestlers and coaches if you have never participated in the room. Even the college wrestlers you watch and think are not very good...can chew you up and spit you out. It's far more intense than you realize.
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Discussion Topic: OSU - Iowa
Rex Holman added to this discussion on January 23, 2011
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It would be silly to think they are not pushing hard, even with the marginal results. Pushing hard does not guarantee results, it just guarantees that you pushed hard in practice.
It is the technical details that matter and get lost in the shuffle. Wrestlers get taken down because their hands get out of position. Wrestlers lack movement off bottom because they lack a skillset which enables them to create movement off bottom. Wrestlers can't ride because their skillset is limited on top.
Too often, the aim of practice becomes to go all out and leave the room totally exhausted. However, that is only half the equation of success and lends itself to mediocre results.
Excellence is predicated on doing things exceptionally well for the duration of a competition. What is lacking is not effort but an application of skills coupled with effort.
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Discussion Topic: OSU - Iowa
Ben Golden added to this discussion on January 23, 2011
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Quote from Mark Niemann's post:
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"I was in the room last thursday. Not only is he pushing them, they are pushing themselves.
I didn't talk to any of them on a personal level, but watching them, it appears that no one is happy about the current situation.
I watched Nick Heflin stay after for 20mins or so doing one thing: getting in the best position to finish a double. He and Pucillo probably did 20 or 30 doubles a piece to get it right.
That doesn't sound like a kid that is okay with not "getting" the next level."
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Music to my ears, Mark.
Looking back, my comments last night were perhaps a little more critical than I'd like them to be. Probably because my emotions ran pretty high after watching a 33-3 loss.
Anyway, I can't wait to see if the adversity the Bucks are swallowing this year and the extra work guys like Heflin are putting in to get out of it pay dividends in years to come.
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Discussion Topic: OSU - Iowa
Patrick Campbell added to this discussion on January 23, 2011
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Quote from Rex Holman's post:
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"It would be silly to think they are not pushing hard, even with the marginal results. Pushing hard does not guarantee results, it just guarantees that you pushed hard in practice.
It is the technical details that matter and get lost in the shuffle. Wrestlers get taken down because their hands get out of position. Wrestlers lack movement off bottom because they lack a skillset which enables them to create movement off bottom. Wrestlers can't ride because their skillset is limited on top.
Too often, the aim of practice becomes to go all out and leave the room totally exhausted. However, that is only half the equation of success and lends itself to mediocre results.
Excellence is predicated on doing things exceptionally well for the duration of a competition. What is lacking is not effort but an application of skills coupled with effort."
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It would be interesting to see the breakdown of what each of the wrestlers is doing to develop their weaknesses. I agree...sweating harder without a strategic plan of devolopment is pretty fruitless.
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Discussion Topic: OSU - Iowa
Rex Holman added to this discussion on January 23, 2011
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Patrick-
Therein lies the quandary.
You need coaching which first identifies the issue, which is the easy part.
Developing a skillset unique to an individuals talents is the second part. This part is what separates good coaching from great coaching. To deal with one area is a case study in problem solving. Assessing the wrestler for what they have ability to do and then having the background to teach it and make it stick is no easy task.
As a sidenote, IMO the wrestlers that "make it" are of various types or combinations. They either have greater adaptiveness, natural talents and/or they receive superior coaching.
Working hard is great and what most coaches model their programs on but there are a lot of "invisible" qualities which make the difference and cause confusion to the person on the outside looking in.
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Discussion Topic: OSU - Iowa
Patrick Campbell added to this discussion on January 23, 2011
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Rex:
Very true. There is a big difference between talking about developing wrestlers and actually doing it. I wonder if some of the issue for tOSU is the staff losses they have sustained? It would be impossible for Tom Ryan to have all of the answers for every wrestler. That being said, even if he does not have the staff in the room right now, he is well connected enough to get the right person in the room, even temporarily to address individual needs. I recall that happening a few times in our room in college. And I don't take for granted the new additions to the staff, but they don't all have significant coaching experience. I'm saying, Jags for instance, was a great wrestler, but is just now developing his coacing prowess. Translating your experience in a palatable way is more challeging than one might think.
Some of the other problems are those which you alluded too. The OSU 285, for instance. That poor kid looked like a deer in the headlights. He was not ready for the level of competition he was facing. It begs the questions: Is he just not far enough along in his development (he was not the intended starter for the year, so it's possible)? Or, is he just a kid that is not going to make it at this level? From personal experience, I can tell you that I could have spent all of the time in the world with Dan Gable and it would not have mattered. I simply did not have the physical tools to compete for a national title in college. I was smart and had skills, but that gift of athletecism was something I never had. My skills and experience served me well in HS, but the fact is, that just was not enough in college. You always hear football analysts say things like, "You can't teach speed." I agree with you that there are intagibles that cannot be coached. That is the "something special" I could not attain and all of the "hard work" in the world could not over come it. I don't mean that you cannot attain some level of success in that situation, please don't take it that way.
Anyway, I appreciate the way you articulate these things to folks. As I say all of the time, it's just so hard to understand if you have never been involved in college wrestling. Your explanations help clarify things for folks that have not been there. It's good for the wrestling community to understand how complex and difficult the road to consistent college wrestling success (team or individual) really is. Keep up the good work!
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Discussion Topic: OSU - Iowa
John Ice added to this discussion on January 23, 2011
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Discussion Topic: OSU - Iowa
Rex Holman added to this discussion on January 23, 2011
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Thanks Patrick. I appreciate your insight and intelligence.
The truth is that some kids develop quickly, some don't. A true blue chip is someone that can come in right away, compete at the next level and very likely win a majority of matches. His development is that far along and he only needs minor adjustments to make it. Each athlete has a unique profile and different needs. Sometimes, the athletes are far along but their development gets sidetracked and forward progress does not happen. The things that won for them in high school do not carry over at the next level and their skillset remains largely the same. It is upsetting for me to see this. As wrestling requires continual progression and skill aquisition, something I too, learned the hard way. I made lots of mistakes and had to largely figure them out on my own while maintaining the rigorous training schedule of college wrestling. It is easy for someone on the outside looking in to make assumptions which are just wrong.
Associations and attributions based on personal experience does not necessarily translate to others. It is the same concept of "let our senses not betray us." Each individual is unique and may not fall under the one size fits all rule.
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Discussion Topic: OSU - Iowa
Patrick Campbell added to this discussion on January 23, 2011
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Quote from John Ice's post:
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"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_v8I_Wk_LKg&feature=player_embedded
Tom Brands post match"
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"This is a sport that you can get sideways real quick when you take on more than you can handle...we gotta have our guys worrying about themselves and let the coaches coach."
"...but I'm upset because when you give full effort and you got it and you need one point, and you can bring the house down with one point, that's something. FIND THE POINT!"
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Discussion Topic: OSU - Iowa
Mike Leedy added to this discussion on January 23, 2011
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All I can hear is, wait til next year, blah, blah, blah.
let's all keep drinkin the tOSU koolaid.
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Discussion Topic: OSU - Iowa
J.P. Barner added to this discussion on January 24, 2011
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Quote from Mike Leedy's post:
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"All I can hear is, wait til next year, blah, blah, blah.
let's all keep drinkin the tOSU koolaid."
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I think we're all open to suggestions...got any?
I didn't think so...thanks for the insight.
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Discussion Topic: OSU - Iowa
Mike Leedy added to this discussion on January 24, 2011
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Quote from J.P. Barner's post:
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"
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Quote from Mike Leedy's post:
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"All I can hear is, wait til next year, blah, blah, blah.
let's all keep drinkin the tOSU koolaid."
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I think we're all open to suggestions...got any?
I didn't think so...thanks for the insight."
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Well, in cases like these, usually the big guy takes the hit, ala- rich-rod.
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Discussion Topic: OSU - Iowa
Lou Demas added to this discussion on January 24, 2011
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Any real fan will drink their teams koolaid even when it leaves a bad taste in their mouth! Plus, there is good reason to still drink Ohio St. Koolaid. Had any team lost as much talent as Ohio St. has they too would suffer greatly. We should remember that when Ohio was doing well they did it with wrestler's who style's differed quite a bit. Pucillo, night and day from Jagger's, Humprey's didn't wrestle anything like Palmer and they got Triggas to AA and let's not forget Bergman had his own style also. I think the staff @ Ohio St. knows to tweak individual wrestler's for success and will do it again. DRINK UP! the koolaid is fine!
OH YEA!!!!!!!!
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Discussion Topic: OSU - Iowa
Ben Golden added to this discussion on January 24, 2011
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Quote from Mike Leedy's post:
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"
Well, in cases like these, usually the big guy takes the hit, ala- rich-rod."
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I don't really know how you can even compare these situations. Rodriguez was disappointing three out of his three years at Michigan and won like two Big Ten games the whole time. Ryan immediately improved the team and hasn't had a very disappointing year yet (maybe last year's results were a little disappointing, but still not terrible).
Like JP said, thanks for your contribution.
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Discussion Topic: OSU - Iowa
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on January 24, 2011
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Quote from Lou Demas's post:
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"Any real fan will drink their teams koolaid even when it leaves a bad taste in their mouth! Plus, there is good reason to still drink Ohio St. Koolaid. Had any team lost as much talent as Ohio St. has they too would suffer greatly. "
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Didn't Iowa the team that just won nine out of ten match against them lose more talent they Ohio State did last year?
I would argue that real fan would not drink the koolaid and would hold their team up to a higher standard. For some reason, Ohio State Wrestling fans are willing to except less than Ohio State Football fans. I've never been able to figure out why?
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