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Discussion Topic: 197 lbs Kilgore VS Brown
Zebulin Miller added to this discussion on January 16, 2011
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Discussion Topic: 197 lbs Kilgore VS Brown
Rex Holman added to this discussion on January 16, 2011
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wow. train wreck, but I could not keep from looking away. Extended fingers to the face followed by some nasty crossfaces, followed by more extended fingers, growing frustration building into anger, spiraling out of control.
Tit for tat theory at work.
You have to outlaw extended fingers in front of the eyes as a tactic, it is a recipe for disaster. I don't agree with this as a tactic because eyes are vulnerable and can end up in torn retinas. It has to go and should not be taught as there are so many more civil and effective tactics.
Partial blame has to go on coaches who teach it.
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Discussion Topic: 197 lbs Kilgore VS Brown
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on January 17, 2011
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Quote from Rex Holman's post:
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"You have to outlaw extended fingers in front of the eyes as a tactic, it is a recipe for disaster. I don't agree with this as a tactic because eyes are vulnerable and can end up in torn retinas. It has to go and should not be taught as there are so many more civil and effective tactics.
Partial blame has to go on coaches who teach it."
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John Trenge had to deal with this his entire career. He was at Ironman a few years back with Tim Dernlan when they were both at Lehigh and there were scars around his eyes from guys hitting the goggles he wore so savagely. Listening to the ref you wonder if he was paying attention to what was going on. The extended fingers were easy to see -- and Kilgore's responses were even more blatent.
I think more than partial blame goes on the coach. He is the one that has the most control over it. Many athletes will do what they are allowed to do by their coach. For example, I see kids barely shaking hands and then running off the mat. I don't allow it so my wrestlers don't do it.
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Discussion Topic: 197 lbs Kilgore VS Brown
Rex Holman added to this discussion on January 17, 2011
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I think education on the matter is needed as it is a gray area and no I don't think the referee fully grasped what was going on between the two wrestlers. No knock on the ref as this is an atypical situation that only comes along every once in awhile and escalates quickly.It could have very easily gotten further out of control.
Fred-
What is your interpretation of fingers extended used to block vision and gauge distance between wrestlers?
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Discussion Topic: 197 lbs Kilgore VS Brown
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on January 17, 2011
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Quote from Rex Holman's post:
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"...No knock on the ref as this is an atypical situation that only comes along every once in awhile and escalates quickly..."
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Rex, you're too kind. I don't know if this guy is a "bad official" or not. I haven't watch enough of his matches to form an educated opinion, but he certainly did a poor job officiating this bout. I see how people blame the coach and the wrestlers have to take responsibility for their actions as well, but the official's job is to keep those two wrestlers safe and within the rules. He didn't do that.
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Discussion Topic: 197 lbs Kilgore VS Brown
Rex Holman added to this discussion on January 17, 2011
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Mike-
I think the referee showed up to officiate a wrestling match and a fight almost broke out. He was not tuned into the severity of the matter. As there were multiple times when a little extra action on the edge of the mat would have ended in punches being thrown.
He got lucky. Am I being tolerant, yes, but only so because the tactic is borderline acceptable in our sport. So, outlaw the tactic and remove the situation from occurring.
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Discussion Topic: 197 lbs Kilgore VS Brown
Fred Feeney added to this discussion on January 17, 2011
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Rex,
I was there that day...watching from another mat as my match was finished. I know the referee very well and as I told him, he blew it big time. he knows it...I know it...everyone knows it.
The entire face if "off limits" to poking, raking etc.
What has to happen is the referee has to maintain and control the action at all times. If we are to live and die by the rules...then enforce them, when needed, with a hammer instead of a feather. There is a time to be a hammer and a time to be a feather. That match, the referee needed to be a hammer.
I spoke to that referee after and he knows that since I assign for 25 colleges and universities, due to this match, there will be a limited # of schools next year I can put him. Everything we do has consequences and he knows that.
Not to "toot" my horn...but watch the 285# Mich/Central Mich match I had Sunday. #2 versus #10. I knew this could be a donnybrook and at the first sign of trouble..I stopped it...had a "come to Jesus meeting" and we moved on. There was no doubt in anyone's mind what would happen if things got stupid. Fortunately, the wrestlers wrestled...didn't fight and someone won...someone last.
I will give you a quick perspective...there are several things I pray for prior to any big match..here is my prayer:
Lord...please let me keep a eye out for potential problems and stop them quickly. Also...please don't let me see something I have never seen before and if
that does occur...please don't let it happen on national TV :)
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Last edited by Fred Feeney on January 17, 2011; edited 1 time in total
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Discussion Topic: 197 lbs Kilgore VS Brown
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on January 17, 2011
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While hands to the face are not illegal, it's my understanding that fingers to the eyes are. It happened several times, he missed it several times. The fact that he called it at the end showed that he was listening to Coach Andrassy more than he was watching the match that was going off the tracks right in front of him.
When Kilgore gets frustrated, he starts to retaliate with borderline cross-faces and totally out of line swings at the head (I think there was even a kick in there toward the end). The ref had every opportunity to shut it down and, for whatever reason he did not.
Like I said, he may not be a bad official all the time, but he certainly was that day.
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Discussion Topic: 197 lbs Kilgore VS Brown
Jack Muni added to this discussion on January 17, 2011
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I was there, and Rex is right, it was real close to a fist fight. It's ironic that Rex asked Fred about the gouging, because Fred was there officiating one of the other matches. He may have officiated the first Purdue match, I don't know because I missed the 10 am ones. I think the other noon matches were done when the Kilgore match was still going on. It seemed like the whole gym was watching these two guys.
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Discussion Topic: 197 lbs Kilgore VS Brown
Fred Feeney added to this discussion on January 17, 2011
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Jack,
Since I had Purdue at Mich the night prior...I "assigned" those matches to the other 2 guys.
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Discussion Topic: 197 lbs Kilgore VS Brown
Rex Holman added to this discussion on January 17, 2011
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Fred-
Thank you for the information. It is very insightful. Not to toot your horn but you are typically spot on and I would pretty much never question your interpretation or rules knowledge.
Mike-
I knew that you are allowed to place your hand in line of vision and that poking may be interpreted unsportsmanlike. However, my point is(you can try this experiment right at the computer)that a hand out in front of you with bent fingers immediately goes to outstretched fingers when you attempt to make contact with a palm. An outstretched finger is rigid, long and narrow, which is the perfect instrument to inadvertently or intentionally find an ocular opening.
Logan Brown uses the hand in the face tactic in his wrestling. He does this in all the matches I have seen.
Having a hand in the face and moving forward is an almost guaranteed eye poke.
My point being is this needs to be revisited and assessed as a legitimate tactic because the negatives outweigh the positives.
Were his eye pokes intentional? I am not going there, but if it had been my wrestler getting poked, you bet your arse I'm on top of it screaming bloody murder.
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Discussion Topic: 197 lbs Kilgore VS Brown
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on January 17, 2011
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It seems to me that the rules to take care of this are already in place and an official that doesn't enforce the rules is just a bad official...and there are a lot of them. The same ones let Coach Brands walk all over them (and the mat). They're the same ones in baseball that have "their" strike zone.
Mr. Feeney...You talked to the guy? If you don't mind me asking, what did he say? Oops? How does one explain not seeing something for seven straight minutes when it's your only job to see such thing?
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Last edited by Michael Rodriguez on January 17, 2011; edited 1 time in total
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Discussion Topic: 197 lbs Kilgore VS Brown
Fred Feeney added to this discussion on January 17, 2011
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Mike,
Great question and he told me as late as last night "I don't have an answer, I just let it get away"
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Discussion Topic: 197 lbs Kilgore VS Brown
Grant Varnum added to this discussion on January 18, 2011
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Not making excuses for the ref, but I will say this...to be the referee in a match of that caliber, with two "top-tenners", i can understand how this ref would want to try and NOT interfere as much as possible.
Too many times, refs get hammered for trying to control too much of the match, and ultimately the outcome of the match...so as we all know, the ref is in a no-win situation most of the time.
In this case/match, it appeared pretty clear that Dustin was the superior wrestler, and had the match in the bag (i know, its never over till its over, but i don't think Dustin is getting hit with a headlock with 30 seconds left - call me silly)...so this ref really didnt have much reason NOT to take over....
But I do think we all need to step back for a minute and realize how much pressure we all put on the refs to "let the wrestlers wrestle"...and realize that in this one instance, maybe it "just got away"...
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Discussion Topic: 197 lbs Kilgore VS Brown
Mark Palumbo added to this discussion on January 18, 2011
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You could look at it another way. Not saying I agree, but Brown was out classed, out gunned and losing. The eye pokes (not called) seemed to set Kilgore off and thus resulted in hard, borderline cross faces, blatantly illegal out of bounds pushing, and an attempted kick/knee. Most of which could have had him thrown out of the match, giving Brown 6 team points and a win. This could be a teachable moment for Kilgore. If he is looking to win an NCAA title (which we know is possible), he will have to keep his cool a little better. If this happen on a national stage (on ESPN), he might have been thrown out first, then questions and an investigation could have been held after. Thus, wrecking his chances at winning a title. I’m not saying he was unjustified in acting out, but the best way to get back at someone taking shots at you is to put points on the board or pin him, not getting disqualified, that is just what your opponent wants. After seeing this, others may try the same tactic in the future..
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