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Discussion Topic: I'm for Tom Ryan
Lou Demas added to this discussion on December 22, 2010
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Quote from Rex Holman's post:
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"Fair enough...I just wanted what I said represented in the light it was intended.
As for the Hellickson years...
One story...It got me spinning today.
tOSU dualed Iowa at home back in I'll say 2003(I don't remember which year)
It came down to 285, T Rowlands v Mocco
Tommy lost that one, after the match I went and talked to him. I was expressing that he needed to get Mocco off his head. Coleman walks over and starts on about how he has to bait Mocco to shoot---OMG. Mentally I left the conversation at that point. Next day, I went to practice with the sole purpose of working with Tommy on the elbow pass(it is now becoming common but back 6 yrs ago not so much---I picked it up off Gutches while at the OTC)
As soon as I go over to work with Tommy, Russ beelines over there and shows him what to do from the 1970s to beat Mocco. Again, I walk away. Hellickson eventually goes about his business and I finally get a chance to help. Tommy picks it up rapidly.
Moral to the story. It should not be that hard to help someone. People that are unwilling to change or are unnaturally strong don't quite understand the subtlety of technical skills and the progressive nature of this sport."
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Rex,
This should have never been posted! At the very best statements like this are made over having a beer with a former team mate. I did not see the match but if Coleman felt that have Tommy had to bait Mocco into shooting so he could front head lock him and wear him down to score with his best stuff or just score from front head if thats is his skill set, this is a strategy some top level heavy weights use. You however, decided to OMG a stop listening. Then when Russ the head Coach, multi natl. champ and Silver medalist at Olympics comes over to show his wrestler a technique, you believe its bad because its from the 70's and Gutches has just shown you the latest and greatest. Rex you are one of the smartest people I know in wresting and you of all people know there are technique's damn near written on cave walls, still in use today. But the number one reason I found you post so offensive is that neither Russ or Coleman post here to defend themselves and your statements came off as you are the absolute authority on wrestling at the expense of to highly accomplished wrestler's.
Trust me when I say this, if Beloglazov posted a story about how when he was in the Ohio state wrestling room he watched Rex Holman show an elbow pass the Russian's have been using from the 1960's and Holman fail to show how how the best wrestler's in Russian would counter the by passing the wrist and this would put Mocco into a good 2 on 1,which would then set him up for a foot sweep or in able Mocco to wear his opponents down from 2 on1, I would say Beloglazov would be wrong! Because if Beloglazov posted where you don't post, you would not have to opportunity to defend yourself. Maybe you did show him the counter to the counter but Beloglazov was not there the whole practice or the next day.
Rex,
I have posted things without thinking myself a am only calling you on it because I think you have great things to offer this sport but some people might just shut you out after reading such a negative.
As for Ohio State, they will fine!!!!
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Discussion Topic: I'm for Tom Ryan
Rex Holman added to this discussion on December 22, 2010
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Lou-
I stand behind everything I wrote. I was a bit worked up about some things, maybe I should only post when I am politically correct. Maybe, maybe not, I am figuring out what is right for me. I am certain that you are not going to make that decision for me.
Having gone through the environment as an athlete and a coach, I am actually in a unique position to comment on the state of affairs. I don't believe in being quiet about past events, rather discuss them and figure out why they went the way they did.
Actually, I take everything you write with a grain of salt after having seen some of your past posts.
If people don't like my posts, quit reading them. 'nuff said.
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Discussion Topic: I'm for Tom Ryan
Lou Demas added to this discussion on December 22, 2010
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Rex-
I don't try to make any decision's for anyone. I always say people can do whatever they want but will it get them what they want. I do believe you make some very valid points when it come to the state of affairs in wrestling and even when I disagree with it's never by much. So can call out Russ and Coleman on how you Rex Holman understand the far sport better the 2 wrestler's who also share the same not so unique experience of being an athlete coach and push people away from learning some very valid things from you, for the sake of being right or you could have made that same statement without mentioning any names.
Really boils down to what you want more, betterment of the sport of wrestling through open discussion or to insult other coaches. I would only hope you change for thoughts on this matter for the betterment of sport.
Btw, I have never been accused of striving for being PC
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Discussion Topic: I'm for Tom Ryan
Doug Brandt added to this discussion on December 22, 2010
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Lou:
You call out Rex Holman for “insulting” Mark Coleman and Russ Hellickson, and then you thoroughly insult him on this message board. You totally over-reacted to what I believe was a pretty benign story from Rex.
No one’s hiding on this forum- our names are clearly visible. If Mark and Russ have any issues with Rex’s post, then they can contact him and hash it out. It’s between the three of them and no one else.
Maybe you’ll get some others standing on your side of the fence- I don’t know. I’m just not one of them.
Doug
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Discussion Topic: I'm for Tom Ryan
Lou Demas added to this discussion on December 22, 2010
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Doug-
I don't believe I insulted Rex let alone thoroughly insult him, I have pointed out that I believe he was wrong and could have made the same point without insulting 2 wrestler's who I have never seen post on this forum to defend themselves.I do believe that Tommy was a 4 time AA and 2 time Natl. champ under Russ so he did something right. I just pointed out that there was no need to insult him or Mark. Please show me where I insulted Rex? In fact I complimented he after he insulted me. You have me at a lost. Again, If you can point out where I insulted Rex please do but saying someone is wrong is not an insult.
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Discussion Topic: I'm for Tom Ryan
Leo Zimmer added to this discussion on December 22, 2010
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I heart Rex Holman... he can teach the elbow pass (or some hack 70's move) to my wrestlers anytime.
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Discussion Topic: I'm for Tom Ryan
David Brown added to this discussion on December 22, 2010
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The comments by Rex actually had more to do with the learning environment than "who knows more." The frustration came from an inability to teach something new due to the coaching culture. It is disheartening to be in an environment where your own gifts and tools are stifled by others.
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Discussion Topic: I'm for Tom Ryan
Lou Demas added to this discussion on December 22, 2010
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David,
It was a who knows more.
Moral to the story. It should not be that hard to help someone. People that are unwilling to change or are unnaturally strong don't quite understand the subtlety of technical skills and the progressive nature of this sport.
Rex was talking about Russ and and Mark, it's obvious he felt they did not know what they were doing by his insulting comments and the follow up ''Morale to story''
The PC thing for me to have done on this forum would have been to ignore his comments since Rex is held in such high regard here. I just don't think that if Rex said, " I stop listening anytime Doug talks about wrestling OMG.'' OR ''Leo shows hack moves from the 70's." they would speak as highly of Rex. I could be wrong and if I am Kudos to Rex for being so good at what he does that people will let themselves be humiliated and insulted so he can make a point, that could have been made just as easily without insulting anyone.
I think better of Rex, even after Rex said He take my posts with a grain of salt, I don't say, Rex you have no know value to the sport, that would be a lie. Rex is very knowledgeable when it comes to wrestling. Rex was complaining that his knowledge of the sport was hard to pass on but then if Russ or Marks fans stop reading Rex's post because of his insulting comments, he is creating what he is complaining about, finding it hard to pass on his knowledge. I know how well read Rex is not just in wrestling but also in philosophy, so I found it odd and offensive that he would take this approach to make a point. Just as i find it odd that people will condone and give such a quick pass to such negative behavior.
So my question to Rex was simple what do you want more pass on knowledge or insult people?
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Discussion Topic: I'm for Tom Ryan
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on December 22, 2010
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I heart Leo Zimmer, Lou Demas AND Rex Holman!
... It's the Christmas spirit, I guess. Lotta love flowin'.
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Discussion Topic: I'm for Tom Ryan
Roe Fox added to this discussion on December 23, 2010
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Rex:
If you stop writing anectdotal information meant as a learning tool I'll stop reading your posts.
This is exactly the place for that stuff and I'm sure if something is so patently wrong someone offended can jump on and type a retort, which in itself may be a learning tool.
I didn't take your comments as a personal attack on either Coleman or Hellickson. I'm sure Gable would encourage analysis of what he did wrong against Owings without taking any offense. . .and he would probably contribute to it.
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Discussion Topic: I'm for Tom Ryan
Rex Holman added to this discussion on December 23, 2010
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Where to go from here. Thank you to those who know that I am sincere in my posts and am probably warranted in the stuff I post.
I am fundamentally different in my beliefs than some people which is based largely upon my life experience. It does not make me right or wrong, it makes me who I am.
Mike R – Sorry about the PM, had to vent as there are a lot of things just not right in the world which go largely unnoticed by the masses. I guess I felt the need to connect and explain my quirks to someone who would probably “get it”
I feel strongly for wrestlers trying to make it (especially in college). Those athletes who feel like a ship with no rudder due to coaches who come up short for lack of willingness to change or by playing to a set of their own rules upsets me greatly. Combine the two and it is doubly upsetting to me.
From time to time when I write, which, I do to share experience and knowledge, the pressure relief valve pops and some of my experience gets included in the story.
Yes, the climate in college rooms is very focused on quantity rather than quality in terms of workload. There is bad advice out there. Good advice should pertain to the wrestler’s skill set, abilities and opponent. To think otherwise is moronic. There I go again getting passionate.
I am not self absorbed enough to think I can help everyone. But, I can help those with similar qualities coming up against the same situations which left me confused and seeking guidance.
I have been there and done that at the NCAA level and pursuit at the senior level through 2001. Up to that point in time I was highly attuned to every facet of wrestling as it had been my life pursuit and had successfully and unsuccessfully navigated just about every situation you could come across. Additionally, my nature is to be highly reflective and concerned with detail. So, I was in fact in a much greater capacity to help those with questions of a wrestling nature.
People in authoritative positions should be able to give answers, real answers! to the matters in question. Guess what, if the answers don’t work they are not real answers. After awhile you can pretty much discern who is telling you good information apart from those who are telling you to just work harder.
Anyway, that pretty much sums up my feelings in almost politically correct way.
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Discussion Topic: I'm for Tom Ryan
Leo Zimmer added to this discussion on December 23, 2010
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Not to put words in your mouth Rex, but what I think you meant to say was...
"Son, we live in a world that has wrestling rooms, and those rooms have to be coached by men with skill. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Mr forum poster? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Hellickson and Coleman, and you curse Holman. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Rowland's loss, while tragic, probably made him better. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, makes wrestlers better. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about while in bleachers, you WANT me in that room, you NEED me in that room.
We use words like drill, work, grind. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent achieving something. You use them as internet forum catch phrases. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the wrestling advice that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it.
I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a whistle, and coach a team. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to."
But that's just me... :-)
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Discussion Topic: I'm for Tom Ryan
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on December 23, 2010
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Quote from Leo Zimmer's post:
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"Not to put words in your mouth Rex, but what I think you meant to say was...
"Son, we live in a world that has wrestling rooms, and those rooms have to be coached by men with skill. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Mr forum poster? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Hellickson and Coleman, and you curse Holman. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Rowland's loss, while tragic, probably made him better. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, makes wrestlers better. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about while in bleachers, you WANT me in that room, you NEED me in that room.
We use words like drill, work, grind. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent achieving something. You use them as internet forum catch phrases. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the wrestling advice that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it.
I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a whistle, and coach a team. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to."
But that's just me... :-)"
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My God, was that good. Great job, Leo!
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Discussion Topic: I'm for Tom Ryan
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on December 23, 2010
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I think it was twice as nice given that the quote is given from a movie about Marines and one of the posters on this very forum is a Marine!!!
Oooh, this is just too good!
Rex: In all seriouness... you mentioned coaching (college) kids based on their skill set. In one of Gable's books, he said something to the effect of regretting not doing this very thing early in his coaching career.
My question deals with high school kids who, given the nature of the beast, know VERY little (maybe even NOTHING) about the sport. I do like the system I teach, thinking that it touches a vast majority of kids in our room. Would our team - my team - be better served by not using a system as a foundation and rather me as the coach letting the kid "wrestle" and I discern what would work best for him???
Just wondering the best avenue to go. Thanks. (And I agree with what someone above mentioned... If you didn't post from who you are, I might not read either.)
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Discussion Topic: I'm for Tom Ryan
Jack Muni added to this discussion on December 23, 2010
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Leo, that was awesome! If you could just get Zeb Miller to video Rex giving that speech on Flo. And with a nice tight closeup...That was great. Very creative.
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