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Discussion Topic: Pay-to-wrestle will be increasing
Steve Lester added to this discussion on August 5, 2010
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School levies have just failed in the North Olmsted, Avon, Buckeye, Highland, and Norton systems.
We know that North Olmsted athletes (re: parents) will be expected to split, among themselves, the entire cost of each program in which they participate. Once the decisions are made by administrators, more exact fees for pay-to-play will be known.
It would be interesting (and probably distressing) to see a comprehensive list of this year's fees, charged by each Greater Cleveland school system, for wrestling and other sports.
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Discussion Topic: Pay-to-wrestle will be increasing
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on August 5, 2010
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The Kornblut Philosophy: All high schools throughout the nation should drop athletic programs and focus on their core mission--education. Communities would support the programs that matter to them and create their own competitions. We've already seen this in Ohio with Jude Roth and his organization running elementary and jr high state meets--and doing a fantastic job.
There's no point in waiting for the money to keep dwindling. The pattern is established. We know that tax revenues are decreasing even as costs are rising. Why not get ahead of this problem? Or we can wait as more and more schools follow the example of Richmond Heights--a school system that lacks the resources to be on its own and should be absorbed by another community--and drop their sports anyway.
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Discussion Topic: Pay-to-wrestle will be increasing
Steve Lester added to this discussion on August 6, 2010
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An interesting philosophy.
There is merit to the thought that 33 or so different local governments within Cuyahoga County alone is wasteful and inefficient.
As far as high school dropping sports altogether.....that's a tougher one.
What "micro" organizations can take their place?
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Discussion Topic: Pay-to-wrestle will be increasing
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on August 6, 2010
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"The Kornblut Philosophy: All high schools throughout the nation should drop athletic programs and focus on their core mission--education."
Hank,
u provide food for thought-- but i don't think athletics should be dropped, they are integral to education-- out of class activites build the person, and not just athletics but choir, debate team, band, etc. Are we dropping those too ??? i hope not.
imo much of the career/job ADVANCES by FEMALES in the last 4 decades can be attributed to them being funded and participating in athletics in high school, which wasnt the case in the 1960s and before.
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"Communities would support the programs that matter to them and create their own competitions. We've already seen this in Ohio with Jude Roth and his organization running elementary and jr high state meets--and doing a fantastic job."
Hank,
this is no substitute for high school in-season athletics. Coaches are very important in todays society, with so many youth in single parent homes, many kids unsupervised, drugs abound-- and alot of those COACHES are TEACHERS too. We need em!
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"There's no point in waiting for the money to keep dwindling. The pattern is established. We know that tax revenues are decreasing even as costs are rising. Why not get ahead of this problem?"
Hank,
school systems, quite a few of them, are poorly run financially, some of them budget to the hilt then cry the blues when there are bumps in the road-- and school unions can sometimes be too powerful and unyielding.
Institutions, like school systems and Government in general, need to learn to LIVE WITHIN THEIR MEANS and PLAN AHEAD just like i do and other citizens and families and small businesses have to do. Its not rocket science, but it takes discipline and foresight and a bit of courage by School boards and Superintendants. (U say "dwindled? My Taxes havent "dwindled" at all.)
Athletics like other extracurricular activites usually do not need to be cut if school systems plan ahead and unions give a little. Cut back maybe, but not cut entirely. (----Yes,cuts will occur in a case like Chrysler shutting their Twinsburg plant-- of course taxes will take huge drop in a case like that and emergency measures will have to be taken.) s/BobP
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Discussion Topic: Pay-to-wrestle will be increasing
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on August 7, 2010
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Most schools cut their music and art programs before sports. Those are much more integral to the educational process...as are the debate teams, etc... Sports are not integral to high school education. Not in the least.
My daughter has played softball and soccer for the last four years. Both programs are community based. There's no reason why she can't continue playing community based athletics through high school.
Many wrestlers get their starts in youth programs. Why do they need to leave these programs to wrestle on their high school squads? Answer--they don't. Indeed, today's best wrestlers will not attend their neighborhood school if the program isn't top notch. They'll sneak into Graham or enroll at Eds or establish a residence in a community like Brecksville. Community programs would change this dynamic. No longer would we have the type of cheating that is so prevalent today in high school athletics regarding residency.
I love athletics and do believe in their importance in building a sound individual. My contention, however, is that these programs do not need to be part of school systems. They can be community based--indeed they should be.
I
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Discussion Topic: Pay-to-wrestle will be increasing
Ben Golden added to this discussion on August 7, 2010
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Hank I'm with you 100%. As sad as it is when they are cut, I think sports should be one of the first things to be to go if cuts have to be made. Organizing them through the community is a great solution.
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Discussion Topic: Pay-to-wrestle will be increasing
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on August 7, 2010
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"Organizing them through the community is a great solution"
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high schools provide a ready made organizational structure with trained professional leadership, some 1000 or so high schools in Ohio, and with the OHSAA.
Teachers often make the best coaches, there are major advantages to having a "coach" working in the school.
as organized now its the most effective way imo-- yes its Not without flaw, i know that -- but overall a success, has worked well overall for 100 years--- so i guess we disagree, and thats fine. s/BobP
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Discussion Topic: Pay-to-wrestle will be increasing
Roe Fox added to this discussion on August 7, 2010
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My head tells me Hank is right and my heart hopes Bob is right.
The reality is that the ideal of the community being the high school and its athetic teams is going away.
Private schools are cherry picking many of the best athletes from the public schools. If you grow up in the city in, say, Akron, and you are good in sports you very well end up at Hoban, Walsh ot St.V. (see Lucifer, er, LeBron, who should have been at Buchtel).
In the summer, the traveling lteams have absolutely gutted the baseball, soccer and softball community leagues which feed the high schools. I know parents who have said they wouldn't let their kids play in the local rec leagues because it would stunt their kids' growth. Yet, when I was a kid those players made the lesser talented kids better. Then, at the end of the season, the "Allstars" would travel to tournaments. At least the leagues were competitive and populated, though.
Open enrollment has killed a lot of the neighborhood feel of athletics. If you live in Cleveland and are good in football, you go to Glenville. Iggy takes it's share, too.
Times are changing and I don't think for the better. However, if Hank can figure out how to keep the "communities" from losing its own kids, maybe that's a start.
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Discussion Topic: Pay-to-wrestle will be increasing
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on August 8, 2010
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well gentlemen,
"the battle of Waterloo was won on the playing-fields of Eton", according to Winston Churchill.
truth is not many local communities are going to make anything happen locally, Hank wont admit it, but its truth.
Schools are what we in America depend on, let's make em work.
s/BobP
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Discussion Topic: Pay-to-wrestle will be increasing
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on August 8, 2010
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Bob: I don't even know what you're saying when you state: Hank won't admit it.
You don't understand what I am proposing either.
The very same people that run athletic programs at high schools could take over community based programs. In many cases these programs already exist. Example: Many St. Eds wrestlers begin in CYO or West Shore Y programs. St Eds affiliated people often run these programs. What I am stating is that the West Shore Y program could extend itself to high school wrestling. So could Chanel Firebirds. Shaker Heights currently has a youth program. Since the high school program is rather weak, they could easily combine forces with neighboring Cleveland Heights or Warrensville if necessary. Many high school programs have youth set ups already in their communities. It wouldn't be that difficult for them to extend their programs to older kids. This concept strikes me as logical and acceptable. The obvious issue would be funding. Kids would have to pay; fund raising would take place. Again, if people value a sport, they'll support it. Otherwise, they won't. We don't need over 500 high school wrestling programs in Ohio, the majority of which are lousy. We need 250 solid community based programs under the auspices of an organization such Jude Roth's (the name escapes me). It would be a relatively seamless transition in my opinion. And its where we're heading if we're going to be foresighted.
Of course, Ohio is never foresighted in any way. That's why the state is in so much trouble.
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Discussion Topic: Pay-to-wrestle will be increasing
Lou Demas added to this discussion on August 8, 2010
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I did quite a bit of research on the net on this before posting and I have drawn come to the conclusion that just having community based sport programs would be the wrong way to go. Study after study showed that athletics not only helped decrease crime but cut obesity,and made better students.
So herein lies the problem, community based programs are great and fill gaps, however the most studies state the main cause of teen problems stem from lack of parental involvement and poverty. My fear is that if we know that athletics help kids score better grades as does music, how we going to be expect poverty stricken area's with parents who lack the parenting skills to involve themselves with their kids or just work to much to be involved, to start such community based programs.
I think after school high school sports are an American staple that levels the playing, how many kids might not get scholarship opportunities or just not do as well in school even if they don't play sports later because their community lack the skill or money to sustain a community based program. If you think I am wrong, I suggest you look at some communities free or low cost community health care center's. Some are great and have a good donor base while other are always struggling to make ends meet.
I said all this, as some who home schools his children and does not like the current educational system, yet taking out high school sports would not be going in the right direction to make things better.
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Discussion Topic: Pay-to-wrestle will be increasing
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on August 8, 2010
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Hank, the devil is in the details, thank you for an explanation of your idea. s/BobP
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Hank posts, "The very same people that run athletic programs at high schools could take over community based programs. In many cases these programs already exist. Example: Many St. Eds wrestlers begin in CYO or West Shore Y programs. St Eds affiliated people often run these programs. What I am stating is that the West Shore Y program could extend itself to high school wrestling. So could Chanel Firebirds."
Hank,
the examples you use, St Eds and Chanel are fighting for survival in the marketplace, as is any private school, they aren't going to take on additional mission requirements that are non-high school. Geting enough kids to pay tuition, and graduating them ready to go to college or to a trade is all they can handle now. s/BobP
Hank, what about Cleveland & other big city public schools? they have their hands full as is, trying to get half their kids just to graduate high school. They aren't taking on any new mission requirements. s/BobP
AND what would the Teachers Unions say about your proposal? they wouldnt buy it. There isn't much they do agree to, so i know they wouldnt buy your idea. s/BobP
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Hank posts, "We don't need over 500 high school wrestling programs in Ohio, the majority of which are lousy."
Hank, name me 500 anything and a number will be lousy, so what? ---
Ever see the movie Pinned? made by local guys, its been featured in several national film festivals already. Interesting story of St Eds wrestling program and the Lakewood hs program, the juxtaposition of the "have and the have not" experience. But to that kid at Lakwood hs, his wrestling program is still very important.
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Hank posts, "Of course, Ohio is never foresighted in any way. That's why the state is in so much trouble."
Hank,
...i am not aware of any state doing what you propose, so your Ohio comment is not relevant.
...High schools are hubs in communites, and they support extracurricular activities that otherwise would Not be done, but that are nevertheless worthwhile to student growth, Not just sports but also band, choir, debate, dance, various clubs, etc. ---- Silmilar to what Public TV does in their mission. s/BobP
...I hate to repeat, but this bears repeating-- i cant prove it but imo much of the FEMALE growth in America in the job/career markets over the last 4 decades has to do with their funding & participation in high school sports, something nonexistent in the 1960s. If the high schools didnt support these sports and other activities, no one would in many cases. s/BobP
So again Hank, we disagree, and thats fine. However you supply food for thought which in itself has merit. s/BobP
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Discussion Topic: Pay-to-wrestle will be increasing
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on August 9, 2010
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Quote from Roe Fox's post:
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"My head tells me Hank is right and my heart hopes Bob is right.
The reality is that the ideal of the community being the high school and its athetic teams is going away.
Private schools are cherry picking many of the best athletes from the public schools. If you grow up in the city in, say, Akron, and you are good in sports you very well end up at Hoban, Walsh ot St.V. (see Lucifer, er, LeBron, who should have been at Buchtel).
In the summer, the traveling lteams have absolutely gutted the baseball, soccer and softball community leagues which feed the high schools. I know parents who have said they wouldn't let their kids play in the local rec leagues because it would stunt their kids' growth. Yet, when I was a kid those players made the lesser talented kids better. Then, at the end of the season, the "Allstars" would travel to tournaments. At least the leagues were competitive and populated, though.
Open enrollment has killed a lot of the neighborhood feel of athletics. If you live in Cleveland and are good in football, you go to Glenville. Iggy takes it's share, too.
Times are changing and I don't think for the better. However, if Hank can figure out how to keep the "communities" from losing its own kids, maybe that's a start."
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Roe, that is 1000% correct.
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Discussion Topic: Pay-to-wrestle will be increasing
Lou Demas added to this discussion on August 9, 2010
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In his latest book, "Spark: The Revolutionary New Science of Exercise and the Brain" (2008, Little, Brown), John Ratey, a Harvard clinical associate professor of psychiatry, argues for more physical fitness for students as a cure for not only their obesity but also their academic performance.
"I cannot underestimate how important regular exercise is in improving the function and performance of the brain." Ratey writes. "Exercise stimulates our gray matter to produce Miracle-Gro for the brain." That "Miracle-Gro" is a brain chemical called brain-derived neurotropic factor, or BDNF. When we exercise, our working muscles send chemicals into our bloodstream, including a protein known as IGF-1.
Once in the brain, IGF-1 orders the production of more BDNF. The additional BDNF helps new neurons and their connections grow. In addition, levels of other neurotransmitters are increased after a strenuous exercise session.
There is just to much research on how exercise and music help improve academic performance. The whole idea of just getting kids back to the basics in school is just a flawed concept. It like telling athletes proper hydration is not important to their performance!
Btw, just because a wrestler might be deem lousy by your standard does not mean that the sport of wrestling did not positively affect his or her life.I know for a fact the military loves wrestlers, not just state champs but all wrestlers because of how hard the are will to train compared to other sports in general.
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