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Discussion Topic: Is MMA good for wrestling?
Tim Courtad added to this discussion on May 12, 2010
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I feel MMA is great for our sport. I have to beleive our numbers in high school have to be increasing. Kids that want to compete in MMA, know they need a good wrestling background. You are basically getting free training by joining the wrestling team instead of going to these martial art academy's. I know everyone here wants wrestling to be as popular as mma, but it's a battle we haven't been able to win. The biggest reason is that everybody can watch MMA and understand what is going on. Wrestling has so many rules, that if your not invoved you don't understand how the scoring is works. I was glad to see USA Wrestling forming a partnership with MMA a few years back. It's also good to see our great wrestlers fighting on TV and getting paid to train a lot of the top MMA fighters.
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Discussion Topic: Is MMA good for wrestling?
Rex Holman added to this discussion on May 12, 2010
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I think the answer is yes and no.
It is a topic that deserves a lot more attention than the time I have to give it.
I think it should have a positive effect at the high school level amongst those athletes who appreciate multidisciplinary forms of combat. Wrestling is one of the big three because of the tools it provides, namely takedowns, kinesthetic awareness and conditioning/intensity/toughness, jiu-jitsu provides the submission aspect and there are a number of disciplines that incorporate striking and kicking. Wrestling is socially acceptable as part of academia because it is nonviolent (no striking, no breaking limbs-intentionally) Wrestling is safe(r) than other combat sports in the right context.
Striking, kicking, and breaking body parts is socially unacceptable, however our culture is changing and it is more readily embracing MMA and where the line is drawn may be pushed back.
Truth is MMA is about hurting the opponent through submission or blunt force trauma. It has violence going for it. Violence capture the attention and sells. Also, it settles any question as to who is the best overall fighter in the world and for what reason, which happens to be really interesting.
Wrestling is a great starting point for any athlete and with proper instruction and coaching, an athlete will likely be a wrestling fan for life regardless of what path they take beyond the sport.
Repetitive blunt force trauma to the head is not a good thing.
It is already proven that coming back to quickly post concussion leaves one predisposed to further brain injury and long term consequence.
I have a lot of mixed feelings about the sport.
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Discussion Topic: Is MMA good for wrestling?
Dan Ransick added to this discussion on May 12, 2010
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I think that it provides an outlet for wrestlers to use their skill set and actually make a living compared to the international circuit where you're cutting teeth just to make it.
I think it hurts wrestling in the sense that some top level stars are not going to the international circuit like they use to.
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Discussion Topic: Is MMA good for wrestling?
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on May 13, 2010
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It's hurting us at the post-collegiate level. Great college wrestlers now have a chance to use their skills to fight for a living. The rules are pretty straight forward and the outcomes are usually fair. Indeed, MMA is a wrestling match only the pin has been replaced by the knockout/submission. I certainly think the odds of success in MMA are better and more lucrative than Olympic success. The one huge negative is getting your brains knocked out (as Rex alluded).
Why train to be an Olympian? The rules constantly change...blind draws determine the bracketing with a carry system that no longer is used in our high schools because it's so unfair...a tiebreaker is based upon colored balls in a bag...I could never in good conscience tell a wrestler to aspire to the Olympics. I appreciate those who do but they have to navigate through FILA's horrid system. There are too many ways to lose that have nothing to do with ability.
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Discussion Topic: Is MMA good for wrestling?
Rex Holman added to this discussion on May 13, 2010
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Hank-
You nailed that one.
You have to love the sport or competition that it provides to compete post collegiately. Then you get to go up against guys who have been competing at a given discipline throughout their entire career, which produces a type of understanding which is only achievable through time and effort.
I look at Ryan Bader, Cain Velasquez and Jon Jones, who are young studs fresh out of college who have aligned themselves with great training partners and coaches, at or near the top of the MMA scene. Not as much of a gap to close and a monetary system that truly rewards you for your effort.
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Discussion Topic: Is MMA good for wrestling?
Chris Shepherd added to this discussion on May 27, 2010
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Rex,
I'd like your perspective on something I was discussing with a colleague of mine a while back. This fella is a HS boxing coach. We are constantly jabbing each other with this and that about how our given sport choice is better. The topic of MMA came up. Obviously, the large majority of successful MMA fighters come from a wrestling background. We have the one sport that translates very well to MMA. My assertion was basically since that is true that wrestlers must make better fighters than boxers (seems to be the logical deduction).
But he went on to argue that the reason the boxing/Muoy Thai community hasn't been as successful as wrestlers is because the best at those sports are still not making the choice to fight MMA. Mainly because the dollars associated with MMA are still nowhere near to those found in the IBF, WBA, and WBC.
For a second there his argument seemed to have some validity (if only partially). What he is saying is the reason boxers are not successful on the MMA scene is because we are only getting the second hand performers. His claim is that a Floyd Mayweather or a Roy Jones, Jr. type star from their sport would come in and dominate in MMA because of sheer striking power.
Being a resident expert from the wrestling community, I'd appreciate any thoughts you could contribute to this argument. Thanks, Shep
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Discussion Topic: Is MMA good for wrestling?
Rex Holman added to this discussion on May 27, 2010
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A single discipline only goes so far.
It is an ignorant comment to say that the elite boxer would come in and dominate the sport of mixed martial arts. That comment reflects a belief system based on limited perspective and pro-boxing background. Each sport deserves its' respect, but MMA is a unique beast that invites every discipline to the table. The guy that wins in MMA is going to be better prepared in the situations that evolve during the fight. The standup game will stay standing if a number of variables are held constant. That is not an easy thing to accomplish in a fight and requires a highly developed skillset.
Sport requires athleticism, skillsets and drive.
Athleticism is the catchall term for speed and strength and all of the derivative subsets of those terms.
There are some truly athletic boxers who would make great MMA fighters if they evolved and developed takedown defense, and groundfighting skills.
Skillsets must account for the positions that evolve and are created. Skillsets take time to develop and are intelligent ways of maneuvering and strategizing. If an athlete does not have the skills to fight in a certain situation, they are largely flying blind. Flying blind gets you beat.
The athlete has to want to be the best and make total sacrifices in order to achieve elite level status. Without the drive to be the best, you won't even be a consideration.
Arguments over who is the best often turn into pissing matches with no real substance and are just emotional jibberish meant to promote ones' beliefs. When people put their pride aside, they can get at the truth of the matter.
Wrestlers that have become great fighters bring a lot athleticism, skill and drive to the table. They have gone beyond their initial skillset as wrestlers and developed striking, kicking and jiu-jitsu skills.
Boxing is like wrestling in that it is highly technical with many nuances of a single technique. Boxing relies on combinations of punches culminating in a heavier punch, wrestling relies on combinations of setups with a power penetration. All sports are about position. You lose position and you get beat. Athletes lose position due to fatigue or lack of skills to respond appropriately.
There is nothing wrong in lobbying for your sport, but I am calling bullturds on that one.
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Discussion Topic: Is MMA good for wrestling?
Rex Holman added to this discussion on May 27, 2010
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Some athletes that are tremendous
Athleticism GSP, King Mo And Jon Jones.
Skillset Fedor
Drive Frankie Edgar, Gray Maynard,
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Discussion Topic: Is MMA good for wrestling?
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on May 28, 2010
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Rex, et.al:
Any thoughts as to Ben Askren's MMA potential? He's not pretty but so far he's won them all. Same question about Johnny Hendricks.
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Discussion Topic: Is MMA good for wrestling?
Rex Holman added to this discussion on May 28, 2010
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Hank-
I think both will be very successful. Right now, Hendricks wins, he is full time and pursuing it without encumbrance. Askren is juggling both, while this would have been ok back in the '90s and early 2000, it is no longer the case.
How well Askren adapts his game on his feet will determine how far he can go. His takedowns need to complement his standup and vice versa. Until he gets to that point, assuming that he does, he is still largely a wrestler fighting MMA. He needs to continue the stand up development. He will very likely be able to take anyone down at some point in the match, but then it becomes a question of damage control if your stand up is lacking. Stand upfighting is without question huge. The tactics taught in boxing don't necessarily translate, however the punches thrown do. jabs, straights, hooks, upcuts and the devastating overhand. The footwork needs to be in tandem with punches, kicks, counterpunches, counter defense, counter takedowns and takedown defense. That's a lot to incorporate. However, the very best do.
Much like wrestling or any discipline for that matter, it comes down to getting the fight where you want it to be and capitalizing on that situation. If you are able to fight in your area of expertise, then it is largely academic and a matter of how good your opposition is in the alternate role of that position.
Both of those guys are at an age where they can make strides really fast. So, a big part of who improves quicker comes down to who is getting better instruction catered to their developmental needs.
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Discussion Topic: Is MMA good for wrestling?
Rex Holman added to this discussion on June 23, 2010
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If you are interested in seeing Askren continue to make his transition. Do a google search on Askren v Hornbuckle. Askren just beat him at the Bellator finals and looked very good in doing so. I believe he won 100k for winning the bracket. His transitions on the mat and grappling were damn good. I would not be surprised to see him make the switch to full time fighter. Money talks.
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Discussion Topic: Is MMA good for wrestling?
Rick Wasmer added to this discussion on June 24, 2010
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Quote from Rex Holman's post:
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"If you are interested in seeing Askren continue to make his transition. Do a google search on Askren v Hornbuckle. Askren just beat him at the Bellator finals and looked very good in doing so. I believe he won 100k for winning the bracket. His transitions on the mat and grappling were damn good. I would not be surprised to see him make the switch to full time fighter. Money talks."
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Hey guys Joe Warren fights tonite , Thursday in the Bellatore finals for featherweights against Patricio Freire . It's on FSNO , is that fox sports ? I just know it's ch 38 in Medina .
Should be a great fight !
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Discussion Topic: Is MMA good for wrestling?
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on June 24, 2010
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Excellent points concerning Ben Askren's stand up. In that finals fight, he got tagged with a punch...perhaps early 2nd round... The elite will drop someone if given the opening that was. His chin, while great for putting on shirts for China, is a target. And if not protected, will get tattooed from someone with excellent stand up.
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Discussion Topic: Is MMA good for wrestling?
Rick Wasmer added to this discussion on June 25, 2010
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Wow , gutsy fight by Joe Warren !! This guy has only been fighting a little more than a year , but has jumped in there with some top notch fighters .
He has to improve on his feet , but he is tough !
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Discussion Topic: Is MMA good for wrestling?
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on June 25, 2010
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Rick: Watched the fight as well. Warren hit some nice doubles in the last two stanzas after getting belted in the first round. He won on conditioning and heart as his opponent looked a lot better in the first round. Love seeing wrestlers beat up other martial arts guys. Still haven't seen video of Askren's fight. I'm going to try and check it out later.
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