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Discussion Topic: Fortune Smiles on the Buckeyes
Rex Holman added to this discussion on April 19, 2010
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Most DI football or basketball powers have a field of study at their respective universities which is not as rigorous as others. i.e. tOSU Recreation Education, and at UM Sports Management (alright take aim at this comment) Also, the studies may be in fact as rigorous for the athlete who has not developed the qualities (time management, study habits) which make a student successful or who has a compensatory defect ( LD, disadvantaged upbringing).
Not all students have the same capacity as others in the classroom. Opposite to that is that many students don't have the same capacity on the playing field.
Most universities make available spots in their enrollment for athletes who demonstrate a particular aptitude because it will benefit the culture of the whole university and bring it acclaim.
As long as the student goes to class, does not misrepresent and does an admirable job in their vocation, then bantering about on the supposed deficits is inane.
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Discussion Topic: Fortune Smiles on the Buckeyes
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on April 19, 2010
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Quote from Rex Holman's post:
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"Most DI football or basketball powers have a field of study at their respective universities which is not as rigorous as others. I.e. tOSU Recreation Education, and at UM Sports Management (alright take aim at this comment) Also, the studies may be in fact as rigorous for the athlete who has not developed the qualities (time management, study habits) which make a student successful or who has a compensatory defect ( LD, disadvantaged upbringing).
Not all students have the same capacity as others in the classroom. Opposite to that is that many students don't have the same capacity on the playing field.
Most universities make available spots in their enrollment for athletes who demonstrate a particular aptitude because it will benefit the culture of the whole university and bring it acclaim.
As long as the student goes to class, does not misrepresent and does an admirable job in their vocation, then bantering about on the supposed deficits is inane."
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I find it interesting Rex that Stanford has been able to do both athletics and academics at the highest level for years. Perhaps other universities should aspire to their standards rather than just become enablers.
Will everyone be able to reach that level? Of course not. But why not shoot for that rather than just look for ways for athletes in many cases to masquerade as students.
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Discussion Topic: Fortune Smiles on the Buckeyes
Grant McCormick added to this discussion on April 19, 2010
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Gary,
I completely fail to see any issue/concern with an athlete working towards a post graduate goal, Olympic wrestling in this case, while further educating himself by either expanding on his current degree or exploring a new area of learning. How is that a ‘flaw’ of the NCAA? Should they discourage learning? Should they enact a rule that once you obtain a degree of some sort, you are restricted from gaining knowledge in other areas? If a kid completes course-work in three yrs, should he lose his athletic eligibility? If you plan to wrestle internationally, are you disqualified from wearing school colors and having one of the most socially productive maturation experiences of attending college?
That’s straight-up tomfoolery.
If the purpose of college is to prepare a student for life in a chosen profession and educate them in a broad spectrum of knowledge; why is an athletically focused profession less worthy than another and how does that compromise the aims of higher education?
Even assuming arguendo, that OSU is strictly serving wrestling program enhancement by recruiting and supporting this kid-- who is hurt or where is the harm? A kid gets a chance to train with the best, learn at a quality school, and experience college: OSU gets an amazing athlete, depth at 285, and a good kid who is going to be more mature in the classroom and wrestling room than most kids with 3yrs of eligibility remaining.
Yeah….shame on the NCAA, OSU, and any other school that affords such opportunities to kids.
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Discussion Topic: Fortune Smiles on the Buckeyes
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on April 19, 2010
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Quote from Grant McCormick's post:
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"Gary,
I completely fail to see any issue/concern with an athlete working towards a post graduate goal, Olympic wrestling in this case, while further educating himself by either expanding on his current degree or exploring a new area of learning. How is that a ‘flaw’ of the NCAA? Should they discourage learning? Should they enact a rule that once you obtain a degree of some sort, you are restricted from gaining knowledge in other areas? If a kid completes course-work in three yrs, should he lose his athletic eligibility? If you plan to wrestle internationally, are you disqualified from wearing school colors and having one of the most socially productive maturation experiences of attending college?
That’s straight-up tomfoolery.
If the purpose of college is to prepare a student for life in a chosen profession and educate them in a broad spectrum of knowledge; why is an athletically focused profession less worthy than another and how does that compromise the aims of higher education?
Even assuming arguendo, that OSU is strictly serving wrestling program enhancement by recruiting and supporting this kid-- who is hurt or where is the harm? A kid gets a chance to train with the best, learn at a quality school, and experience college: OSU gets an amazing athlete, depth at 285, and a good kid who is going to be more mature in the classroom and wrestling room than most kids with 3yrs of eligibility remaining.
Yeah….shame on the NCAA, OSU, and any other school that affords such opportunities to kids."
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Grant do you actually believe that any athlete, particularly a high-level one, who goes from a JUCO to a 4-year school to pursue either another associates or a bachelors in a completely different field where he/she is now going back and taking 100 and 200 level classes is doing this to "expand on his current degree or exploring a new area of learning"? Wow, PT Barnum was certainly correct.
An athletically-focused career is absolutely fine, but to do it under the charade perpetrated and enabled by the "instituion of higher learning" is a bit silly to say the least. And to give him public money (i.e. scholarship) to do it with might very well be taking money away from someone who is there for the mission of the university. Or at least the mission that universities were intended to have.
And no one is hurt or harmed, assuming another actual student is not denied admission to make room for the athlete poorly masquerading as one. Or that another is not denied scholarship money being used on the athlete-student. Not saying that is the case here, just explaining where theoretical harm might occur.
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Discussion Topic: Fortune Smiles on the Buckeyes
Rex Holman added to this discussion on April 19, 2010
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Gary-
This whole matter is subject to opinion.
I don't like the way education is structured in our country. That is a discussion for another day.
Universities are businesses and each has a different model.
It is what it is due to market forces.
Stanford has a different business model. which is held in high esteem and deservedly so.
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Discussion Topic: Fortune Smiles on the Buckeyes
Roe Fox added to this discussion on April 19, 2010
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"Roe, international wrestling is certainly a noble pursuit. Can't he do that without the charade of being a college student if that is his ultimate goal? "
Gary: I imagine that is true but with the new Training Center it certainly helps TOSU in recruiting and allows the student to advance his education. I imagine it is why it exists.
Seems like a win-win. I don't think it fair to question Fortune's motives because there is no reason these goals have to be mutually exclusive. I would think -- though I don't know for sure -- that the EASY thing would be to just go to Colorado Springs and forget about college but it seems to have some importance to him.
I applaud that. From your prior posts on other subjects I would think you would, also.
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Discussion Topic: Fortune Smiles on the Buckeyes
Grant McCormick added to this discussion on April 19, 2010
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"Wow, PT Barnum was certainly correct."
Sure, but he also said "More persons, on the whole, are humbugged by believing in nothing, than by believing too much”. I do believe that there are plenty of kids that are athletically gifted but, for many reasons, are not academically proficient. These kids would never get into OSU or UM etc... without attending juco and getting eligible enough to be accepted. Many of these kids do want an education and do want to learn more, and do want to achieve on and off the mat/court/field....to paint them with a broad brush of arrogant elitist b-s is disheartening.
Therefore, go ahead and be "humbugged" and wallow in your lack of faith in young people...particularly those who often come from lower socio-economic backgrounds. I will gladly play the role of "sucker" and "actually believe that any athlete, particularly a high-level one, who goes from a JUCO to a 4-year school to pursue either another associates or a bachelors in a completely different field where he/she is now going back and taking 100 and 200 level classes is doing this to "expand on his current degree or exploring a new area of learning"".
Perhaps it's a matter of personal preference...I liked learning and found it to have inherent value. It would appear that you do not. I'll agree to disagree on that.
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Discussion Topic: Fortune Smiles on the Buckeyes
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on April 19, 2010
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Quote from Roe Fox's post:
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""Roe, international wrestling is certainly a noble pursuit. Can't he do that without the charade of being a college student if that is his ultimate goal? "
Gary: I imagine that is true but with the new Training Center it certainly helps TOSU in recruiting and allows the student to advance his education. I imagine it is why it exists.
Seems like a win-win. I don't think it fair to question Fortune's motives because there is no reason these goals have to be mutually exclusive. I would think -- though I don't know for sure -- that the EASY thing would be to just go to Colorado Springs and forget about college but it seems to have some importance to him.
I applaud that. From your prior posts on other subjects I would think you would, also."
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Well, when you put it that way........... :)
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Discussion Topic: Fortune Smiles on the Buckeyes
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on April 19, 2010
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Quote from Grant McCormick's post:
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""Wow, PT Barnum was certainly correct."
Sure, but he also said "More persons, on the whole, are humbugged by believing in nothing, than by believing too much”. I do believe that there are plenty of kids that are athletically gifted but, for many reasons, are not academically proficient. These kids would never get into OSU or UM etc... without attending juco and getting eligible enough to be accepted. Many of these kids do want an education and do want to learn more, and do want to achieve on and off the mat/court/field....to paint them with a broad brush of arrogant elitist b-s is disheartening.
Therefore, go ahead and be "humbugged" and wallow in your lack of faith in young people...particularly those who often come from lower socio-economic backgrounds. I will gladly play the role of "sucker" and "actually believe that any athlete, particularly a high-level one, who goes from a JUCO to a 4-year school to pursue either another associates or a bachelors in a completely different field where he/she is now going back and taking 100 and 200 level classes is doing this to "expand on his current degree or exploring a new area of learning"".
Perhaps it's a matter of personal preference...I liked learning and found it to have inherent value. It would appear that you do not. I'll agree to disagree on that."
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Grant, it's not a matter of not liking learning. My degree from Michigan is a master's, I have a son with an MBA and a daughter about to graduate from Johns Hopkins next month. We moved to Shaker many years ago for the educational opportunities for our children.
But I can also see through someone, and I don't know if this is the case with Fortune but with five children including two who played college sports, I have seen it with others who were not there for the education. Let's not think that does not happen. Or that it cannot happen at Ohio State. Remember, this is the school that sold its soul to Maurice Clarrett. Or gladly took a one-and-done in Greg Oden.
And yes, Michigan has RichRod :( and the travesty he is.
My point is "faith" is great, but blind faith can be very misleading.
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Discussion Topic: Fortune Smiles on the Buckeyes
Kevin Schlosser added to this discussion on April 19, 2010
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I was in Michigan and Indiana over the weekend with NUWAY and family so I haven't been following this discussion. Normally I try to avoid posting things on messages boards because I try to walk the line of confidentiality. I believe some things should be kept private (academics, injuries, recruiting, etc.) When I opened this thread I was somewhat shocked by some of the discussion.
As some that is somewhat close to the situation as I have followed his career for sometime and have been working on the feature since February I'll add some information that may further explain what is going.
This is my understanding or perspective.
Fortune has a 2.9 GPA at Clackamas. He could graduate if he wanted to at the end of the summer but not every credit would transfer into a degree program at Ohio State. Clackamas requires 72 credits for a degree which he will have when school gets out, the Big Ten requires 77 credits which is higher than the NCAA minimums. When transferring schools, classes have to match up with majors or be equivilants to count. You could have a 4.0 with 150 credits and not have 77 transferable credits.
The OSU coaches, Fortune, Clackamas, the CCC coaches, and Coach Pittman have worked together to develop a plan for Fortune to be as succesful as possible as a student and as a wrestler. A wrestler is a student athlete, with student being first. The plan now is to have him enroll when he is ready to enter school as a true junior. (Considering the majority of all college students are requiring five years to get a degree, he is actually a lit bit ahead of schedule.) Rather than asking him to take a heavy load this summer in a shortened summer quarter, they are splitting things up over two quarters so he can continue to do well, end things strong, and carry the momentum to Columbus.
People should understand that when he chose to come to Ohio State over other schools he chose the tougher academic route with higher requirements and expectations. It also meant he was going to have to do more to go to tOSU which meant he would have to take some extra classes. I know that as much as the Buckeyes want to see him do well on the mats, they want to see him do well in class and graduate with a useful degree. (something they want for every wrestler in the program)
As a former teacher I have been in and around education for 25 years if you count my time as a student. With that said he has been focusing on academics since he trasferred schools after his junior year in high school. Had he stayed at his old HS he would have been accepted to a lot of schools right away because he would have been in the top X% of his class. When he went to a tougher academic HS it dropped his class standing. He changed schools to better prepare him for college.
He chose to go to Clackamas instead of going somewhere and redshirting then wrestling to continue his academic development. This is not an indication of his lack of academic skills or success, it was a decision to further his personal and academic development goals. To me that is maturity and responsibility. This year he could have wrestled all summer long and split the load between summer (putting all his eggs in the fall basket) but is currently planning on working ahead this summer to ensure he will be ready to wrestle when he arrives. At the same time he would also prefer to take classes in person than taking them online. (This is something as an educator tells me he has identified what learning style works best for him)
Fortune needs his degree to be accepted at OSU. He needs the transferable credits to become eligible to compete. There is a difference. As others have said graduation is a requirement for any high school kid but also for a second year JC transfer.
I hope this clears up some of the misconceptions or confusion that some people have about Fortune, his delayed enrollment, or academic situation. I am not addressing anyone individually but I will say that Bob was being very neutral when advising Ohio State fans to not count their chickens before they hatch. At the same time I have little doubt he will be in Columbus in December.
Whether Fortune is successful at Ohio State comes down to the work he puts in. At this point everyone around the program and in Oregon are confident that he will succeed on all fronts. I don't think anyone is right or wrong for asking questions, but people are treating opinions as facts and I don't know how many people have talked to Fortune, his coaches at Clackamas, or people at Ohio State that have commented on this message.
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Discussion Topic: Fortune Smiles on the Buckeyes
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on April 19, 2010
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Quote from Kevin Schlosser's post:
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"I was in Michigan and Indiana over the weekend with NUWAY and family so I haven't been following this discussion. Normally I try to avoid posting things on messages boards because I try to walk the line of confidentiality. I believe some things should be kept private (academics, injuries, recruiting, etc.) When I opened this thread I was somewhat shocked by some of the discussion.
As some that is somewhat close to the situation as I have followed his career for sometime and have been working on the feature since February I'll add some information that may further explain what is going.
This is my understanding or perspective.
Fortune has a 2.9 GPA at Clackamas. He could graduate if he wanted to at the end of the summer but not every credit would transfer into a degree program at Ohio State. Clackamas requires 72 credits for a degree which he will have when school gets out, the Big Ten requires 77 credits which is higher than the NCAA minimums. When transferring schools, classes have to match up with majors or be equivilants to count. You could have a 4.0 with 150 credits and not have 77 transferable credits.
The OSU coaches, Fortune, Clackamas, the CCC coaches, and Coach Pittman have worked together to develop a plan for Fortune to be as succesful as possible as a student and as a wrestler. A wrestler is a student athlete, with student being first. The plan now is to have him enroll when he is ready to enter school as a true junior. (Considering the majority of all college students are requiring five years to get a degree, he is actually a lit bit ahead of schedule.) Rather than asking him to take a heavy load this summer in a shortened summer quarter, they are splitting things up over two quarters so he can continue to do well, end things strong, and carry the momentum to Columbus.
People should understand that when he chose to come to Ohio State over other schools he chose the tougher academic route with higher requirements and expectations. It also meant he was going to have to do more to go to tOSU which meant he would have to take some extra classes. I know that as much as the Buckeyes want to see him do well on the mats, they want to see him do well in class and graduate with a useful degree. (something they want for every wrestler in the program)
As a former teacher I have been in and around education for 25 years if you count my time as a student. With that said he has been focusing on academics since he trasferred schools after his junior year in high school. Had he stayed at his old HS he would have been accepted to a lot of schools right away because he would have been in the top X% of his class. When he went to a tougher academic HS it dropped his class standing. He changed schools to better prepare him for college.
He chose to go to Clackamas instead of going somewhere and redshirting then wrestling to continue his academic development. This is not an indication of his lack of academic skills or success, it was a decision to further his personal and academic development goals. To me that is maturity and responsibility. This year he could have wrestled all summer long and split the load between summer (putting all his eggs in the fall basket) but is currently planning on working ahead this summer to ensure he will be ready to wrestle when he arrives. At the same time he would also prefer to take classes in person than taking them online. (This is something as an educator tells me he has identified what learning style works best for him)
Fortune needs his degree to be accepted at OSU. He needs the transferable credits to become eligible to compete. There is a difference. As others have said graduation is a requirement for any high school kid but also for a second year JC transfer.
I hope this clears up some of the misconceptions or confusion that some people have about Fortune, his delayed enrollment, or academic situation. I am not addressing anyone individually but I will say that Bob was being very neutral when advising Ohio State fans to not count their chickens before they hatch. At the same time I have little doubt he will be in Columbus in December.
Whether Fortune is successful at Ohio State comes down to the work he puts in. At this point everyone around the program and in Oregon are confident that he will succeed on all fronts. I don't think anyone is right or wrong for asking questions, but people are treating opinions as facts and I don't know how many people have talked to Fortune, his coaches at Clackamas, or people at Ohio State that have commented on this message."
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Kevin, very informative! Thanks!
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Discussion Topic: Fortune Smiles on the Buckeyes
Rex Holman added to this discussion on April 21, 2010
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It is so refreshing to hear someone with information on a matter put the kibosh on speculation
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Discussion Topic: Fortune Smiles on the Buckeyes
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on May 1, 2010
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I am thrilled that Fortune is coming to Ohio State. Ohio State has struggled to land a top notch 285 recruit for the last several years and it seems they've finally found a guy with big time potential. I am curious as to whether or not he'll have two or three years of eligibility. Perhaps someone can answer that question.
I'm excited that the Buckeyes have landed both Fortune and Tessari. Coach Ryan said his plan was to reach a point where the Buckeyes were putting ten "animals" out on the mat. These two guys fit the description. Congrats to Tyrelle Fortune and the Buckeye wrestling program.
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Discussion Topic: Fortune Smiles on the Buckeyes
Ben Golden added to this discussion on May 1, 2010
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Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
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"I am thrilled that Fortune is coming to Ohio State. Ohio State has struggled to land a top notch 285 recruit for the last several years and it seems they've finally found a guy with big time potential. I am curious as to whether or not he'll have two or three years of eligibility. Perhaps someone can answer that question.
I'm excited that the Buckeyes have landed both Fortune and Tessari. Coach Ryan said his plan was to reach a point where the Buckeyes were putting ten "animals" out on the mat. These two guys fit the description. Congrats to Tyrelle Fortune and the Buckeye wrestling program."
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He will have 3 years of eligibility. He wrestled his true freshman year, and then redshirted this year (his 2nd year).
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Discussion Topic: Fortune Smiles on the Buckeyes
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on May 1, 2010
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Does anyone have a good reason for our lack of 285 recruiting? I like Hiles and think he could do great things for the Buckeyes but if he is all we have, what does that say?
In context, we see so much talk about our 125 though 157 talk and how our depth will be a strength... why no talk for the big boys? We - yeah... we! - tNDG bumps Bergman up, and goes with a stellar but perhaps undersized Morrison... are there no 258 pounders out there!?
Considering the fact that Tommy and Trevel are there, as well as Bergman, one could step in and make HUGE gains by putting in the time.
I ain't hatin', I'm just statin'.
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