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Discussion Topic: I thought we were recruting Camp are we going to lose another one to Penn State?
Roe Fox added to this discussion on April 9, 2010
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"They may have good stuff and be able to develop talent, but their real skill is finding and bringing in talent for others to coach. Talent that not only can excell on the wrestling mat, but can hold their own in the classroom and handle the freedom and social aspects of college life."
I don't disagree with any of this, for what it is worth. But talent can be looked at in different ways. There is the talent a guy like Borelli digs for that isn't necessarily the four time champ and top ranked recruit but the diamond in the rough.
If TOSU gets a Stieber and Demas and also a few of the CMU types then a title can be had. It might not result in a top ranked recruiting class but it may make for a national title. Iowa proved individual champions aren't needed to win a team title just two years ago. Minnesota did the same a few years earlier.
It would be great to have the Altons, Evans, Kindig, Peppelman, etc. I am not saying that wouldn't be fantastic. Of course it would. There is a reality that says if most college teams want to win the title they will have to go through the big three (plus Cornell next year) with a different kind of recruit.
Or just strive for mediocrity. That is another option I suppose.
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Discussion Topic: I thought we were recruting Camp are we going to lose another one to Penn State?
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on April 9, 2010
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If you get guys like Stieber or the Altons and then sign a some "CMU type" guys that pan out to be All Americans, then you are out recruiting others. Just because a wrestler who will eventually develop into an AA isn't a highly ranked recruit doesn't mean that the team that signs him just lucked out. Perhaps they saw something that others didn't? Outrecruiting other teams isn't just signing all the big names. It's also about getting value out of your 9.9. Daniel Dennis and Ryan Morningstar contributed equally to Iowa's last two titles. One was a highly ranked recruit coming out of high school, the other wasn't.
When you look at what Iowa, Oklahoma State and Penn State (Cornell too) have done on the recruiting trail the last few years, Ohio State's staff would have to be significantly better then their staffs to make of the difference in the level of athlete coming in. I think Coach Ryan is an excellent coach and he has a top-notch staff, but can we say that it's significantly better than Brands and Company at Iowa? Sanderson's crew at Penn State? Smith at OSU?
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Discussion Topic: I thought we were recruting Camp are we going to lose another one to Penn State?
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on April 9, 2010
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Quote from Roe Fox's post:
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""Perhaps by outcoaching them. If it was only about recruiting you wouldn't need the coaching staff for anything else."
Absolutely. If it was simply about recruiting Butler and WVA don't sniff the final four this year.
If you think TOSU is going to get more highly ranked recruits in the next few years then PSU (and perhaps even Okla. St. and Iowa) then you are dreaming. But the matches still get wrestled and thats where the inroads can be made. Once its built they will come.
Of course, that is just my humble opinion."
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Roe, that is my point exactly.
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Discussion Topic: I thought we were recruting Camp are we going to lose another one to Penn State?
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on April 9, 2010
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Quote from Michael Rodriguez's post:
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"If you get guys like Stieber or the Altons and then sign a some "CMU type" guys that pan out to be All Americans, then you are out recruiting others. Just because a wrestler who will eventually develop into an AA isn't a highly ranked recruit doesn't mean that the team that signs him just lucked out. Perhaps they saw something that others didn't? Outrecruiting other teams isn't just signing all the big names. It's also about getting value out of your 9.9. Daniel Dennis and Ryan Morningstar contributed equally to Iowa's last two titles. One was a highly ranked recruit coming out of high school, the other wasn't.
When you look at what Iowa, Oklahoma State and Penn State (Cornell too) have done on the recruiting trail the last few years, Ohio State's staff would have to be significantly better then their staffs to make of the difference in the level of athlete coming in. I think Coach Ryan is an excellent coach and he has a top-notch staff, but can we say that it's significantly better than Brands and Company at Iowa? Sanderson's crew at Penn State? Smith at OSU?"
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Perhaps not, but would that not then be the fault of the staff?
Again, if it was all and only about recruiting then they could just hand out the national championship on National Signing Day.
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Discussion Topic: I thought we were recruting Camp are we going to lose another one to Penn State?
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on April 9, 2010
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Quote from Gary Sommers's post:
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"Perhaps not, but would that not then be the fault of the staff?
Again, if it was all and only about recruiting then they could just hand out the national championship on National Signing Day."
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I'm not saying it "all and only" about recruiting. I'm saying that in order to make up the kind of recruiting deficit that Ohio State has compared to OSU, Iowa and Penn State over the past few years the staff would have to be able to develop every wrestler on the squad to overachieve.
As far as handing out National Championships on signing day, you can't do that because on signing day you don't know who has done the best job. You know who "the rankers" think has done the best job, but you won't know until their careers are over if a recruit was all star or a underachiever or a dimond in the ruff.
I would argue, while it's not all about recruiting, a very large chunk of it is. let's say you get a Logan Stieber type guy, consensus #1 in the nation coming out. Well, if he ends up a 4X AA and a National Champion was it your development of him, or the fact that he chose your school? If you sign a guy like Daniel Dennis or Pat Cummings who didn't win their state high school title but turned out to be strong contributers and multiple AAs...was it your development of them, or was there something special about them that made you want to bring them in in the first place?
I think it still all starts with recruiting, bringing in the right guys. Not necessarily all blue-chip guys, but the right mix of prep super-stars, second teir wrestlers that can take it to another level and sleeper recruits. And also bringing in guys that fit your staff's coaching style, guys who you think will thrive in your system and culture. So when an athlete does meet or exceed expectations, he does so because you convinced him to attend your school. Without that the rest can't happen.
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Discussion Topic: I thought we were recruting Camp are we going to lose another one to Penn State?
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on April 9, 2010
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And I am certainly not trying to say recruiting has nothing to do with success. I know it is a combination. But I hate to see anyone say "we don't get the best recruits so we can't win".
As Roe referred to, Kentucky has two first-team AAs and FIVE guys going into the draft, and last I looked it was Butler with a final shot to win it all. That kid at Butler coached his butt off, and it showed.
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Discussion Topic: I thought we were recruting Camp are we going to lose another one to Penn State?
Pat Costilow added to this discussion on April 9, 2010
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Mike, I think you make some great points, but there are always exceptions to the rule. Look at the run WVU has had the last few years. Last year their lineup was littered with blue chip type guys, amazing resumes of many state titles and high Fargo finishes. WVU is, however, not a good team. There are obviously intangibles in each situation, but there is more than recruiting.
That being said, Brands, Smith, and Sanderson have set the bar pretty high. Dennis is a great example of what makes teams great- the lower tier kids stepping up big. Ohio State really hasn't had one of these in Ryan's regime, while he kind of made a living off of those guys at Hofstra out of necessity. We need some of these types in the OSU room. Ryan and staff have done a great job of bringing in lots of these second tier recruits, but none have made big leaps to date (although I like Jared Kusar a lot).
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