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Discussion Topic: Public vs. Private Schools Athletics
Roe Fox added to this discussion on March 2, 2010
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Discussion Topic: Public vs. Private Schools Athletics
Gary Corroto added to this discussion on March 2, 2010
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Always a very interesting and controversial topic. However, there is one aspect to this issue that I rarely see discussed - what do you do with public schools that have open enrollment?
If you are going to advocate seperating out the private schools, then the same reasoning would have to apply to open enrollment public schools. Actually, the open enrollment public schools have an advantage over the private schools when it comes to attracting student-athletes, because there is no cost to open enroll at a public school.
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Discussion Topic: Public vs. Private Schools Athletics
Steve Lester added to this discussion on March 2, 2010
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Then there is what you might call "partial" open enrollment, which exists in the Cleveland public schools. Anyone living within the city limits can pick his or her high school.
The Plain Dealer did a story on Glenville's football program a year or two ago showing on a map where it's athletes resided. They were scattered across the city, east side and to far west side.
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Discussion Topic: Public vs. Private Schools Athletics
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on March 2, 2010
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Gary, I could be wrong or things could have changed but I always thought that in the public schools with open enrollment any student from outside the district who attends has to pay the average cost per pupil that the district spends.
Has that changed?
But either way, public schools with open enrollment must be treated just like the privates and parochials would be treated.
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Discussion Topic: Public vs. Private Schools Athletics
Gary Corroto added to this discussion on March 2, 2010
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Gary -
The dollars allocated by the state for that pupil follow the student. For example if I live in Green and open enroll my son at Perry, the state funding allocated to Green for my son now goes to Perry instead of Green. However, it costs me nothing.
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Discussion Topic: Public vs. Private Schools Athletics
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on March 2, 2010
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Quote from Gary Corroto's post:
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"Gary -
The dollars allocated by the state for that pupil follow the student. For example if I live in Green and open enroll my son at Perry, the state funding allocated to Green for my son now goes to Perry instead of Green. However, it costs me nothing."
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I understand the part about the state dollars following the student, but the residents in the district the child is going to also pay property taxes that go to the district. But in this scenario the parents of the child who is going over to the open enrollment school aren't contributing anything from a property tax persepctive to the district.
So, in essence if I get this right, the student is in a sense "under contributing" to the new school. I hope I said that so it makes sense.
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Discussion Topic: Public vs. Private Schools Athletics
Gary Corroto added to this discussion on March 2, 2010
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Quote from Gary Sommers's post:
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"
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Quote from Gary Corroto's post:
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"Gary -
The dollars allocated by the state for that pupil follow the student. For example if I live in Green and open enroll my son at Perry, the state funding allocated to Green for my son now goes to Perry instead of Green. However, it costs me nothing."
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I understand the part about the state dollars following the student, but the residents in the district the child is going to also pay property taxes that go to the district. But in this scenario the parents of the child who is going over to the open enrollment school aren't contributing anything from a property tax persepctive to the district.
So, in essence if I get this right, the student is in a sense "under contributing" to the new school. I hope I said that so it makes sense."
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I think you are characterizing it properly. But they are also "over-contributing" to their home school district because they are paying property taxes there but not sending their child there.
However the overall economics net out, the bottom line to the parent is that they pay nothing to open enroll thier child at a public school as opposed to paying tuition at a private school. From a purely athletic standpoint, the public open enrollment schools have the greatest potential competative advatange.
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Discussion Topic: Public vs. Private Schools Athletics
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on March 2, 2010
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in a way this dovetails with the recent "Why have 3 Divisions in Ohio thread?"
yes Ohio could add another wrestling Division, the Private school Div, then we'd have 4 Div and could crown 56 state champs annually and 448 placers. UGH, talk about watering down!! Then great individual matchups at state would become even rarer than today.
the factors addressed in the Beacon article failed to mention the general overall severe decline in the public school system in America, not everywhere but in many areas, and it is a factor. i didnt expect the Superintendants to mention it. s/BobP
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Discussion Topic: Public vs. Private Schools Athletics
Kevin Petrella added to this discussion on March 3, 2010
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With Ohio having many private schools, if OHSAA seperated divisions, these schools would have the potential to create their own governing athletics. You could include teams like St. Paris Graham with open enrollment. If I'm them and I'm in a no transfer rule "league," I'm taking full advangtage. This could be worse for the public schools because their would be no rules. My quarterback goes down in week 5. Who wants a full ride to play for me? Oh you go to "so and so" public school? Thanks ok we still have a full ride for you.
Competition would also go down severly and other states would be on their very way to passing us. I have an old coach that resides in North Carolina where they seperate the public and private. There are people trying to make a push to bring them back together because of this very reason.
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Discussion Topic: Public vs. Private Schools Athletics
Gary Corroto added to this discussion on March 3, 2010
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Quote from Kevin Petrella's post:
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"With Ohio having many private schools, if OHSAA seperated divisions, these schools would have the potential to create their own governing athletics. You could include teams like St. Paris Graham with open enrollment. If I'm them and I'm in a no transfer rule "league," I'm taking full advangtage. This could be worse for the public schools because their would be no rules. My quarterback goes down in week 5. Who wants a full ride to play for me? Oh you go to "so and so" public school? Thanks ok we still have a full ride for you.
Competition would also go down severly and other states would be on their very way to passing us. I have an old coach that resides in North Carolina where they seperate the public and private. There are people trying to make a push to bring them back together because of this very reason."
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Excellent point. If the OHSAA has a private school division, then what incentive do the private schools have to remain members of the OHSAA. Since they would only be competeing against each other for state championships they might as well form their own association and operate their own tournaments.
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Discussion Topic: Public vs. Private Schools Athletics
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on March 3, 2010
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Quote from Kevin Petrella's post:
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"With Ohio having many private schools, if OHSAA seperated divisions, these schools would have the potential to create their own governing athletics. You could include teams like St. Paris Graham with open enrollment. If I'm them and I'm in a no transfer rule "league," I'm taking full advangtage. This could be worse for the public schools because their would be no rules. My quarterback goes down in week 5. Who wants a full ride to play for me? Oh you go to "so and so" public school? Thanks ok we still have a full ride for you.
Competition would also go down severly and other states would be on their very way to passing us. I have an old coach that resides in North Carolina where they seperate the public and private. There are people trying to make a push to bring them back together because of this very reason."
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But that QB already has a "full ride" to his public school, so what would they be offering him that he doesn't already have?
And who would want a kid that would jump ship and change schools at that time that easily? What kind of character or judgement does that show?
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Discussion Topic: Public vs. Private Schools Athletics
Kevin Petrella added to this discussion on March 3, 2010
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Quote from Gary Sommers's post:
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"
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Quote from Kevin Petrella's post:
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"With Ohio having many private schools, if OHSAA seperated divisions, these schools would have the potential to create their own governing athletics. You could include teams like St. Paris Graham with open enrollment. If I'm them and I'm in a no transfer rule "league," I'm taking full advangtage. This could be worse for the public schools because their would be no rules. My quarterback goes down in week 5. Who wants a full ride to play for me? Oh you go to "so and so" public school? Thanks ok we still have a full ride for you.
Competition would also go down severly and other states would be on their very way to passing us. I have an old coach that resides in North Carolina where they seperate the public and private. There are people trying to make a push to bring them back together because of this very reason."
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But that QB already has a "full ride" to his public school, so what would they be offering him that he doesn't already have?
And who would want a kid that would jump ship and change schools at that time that easily? What kind of character or judgement does that show?"
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Gary,
What would they be offering him? Maybe a better education that he isn't getting at that public school. Maybe that public school is in a terrible area and he is actually scared everyday at school. I'm just creating some scenarios.
Also, I'm not questioning that it would not show bad character but how many people, coaches, athletes would care? Again, I would care, I'm all about integrity of the sports and competition but we all know the ugly truth... there are many, many people out there that don't
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Discussion Topic: Public vs. Private Schools Athletics
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on March 3, 2010
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Quote from Kevin Petrella's post:
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"
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Quote from Gary Sommers's post:
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"
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Quote from Kevin Petrella's post:
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"With Ohio having many private schools, if OHSAA seperated divisions, these schools would have the potential to create their own governing athletics. You could include teams like St. Paris Graham with open enrollment. If I'm them and I'm in a no transfer rule "league," I'm taking full advangtage. This could be worse for the public schools because their would be no rules. My quarterback goes down in week 5. Who wants a full ride to play for me? Oh you go to "so and so" public school? Thanks ok we still have a full ride for you.
Competition would also go down severly and other states would be on their very way to passing us. I have an old coach that resides in North Carolina where they seperate the public and private. There are people trying to make a push to bring them back together because of this very reason."
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But that QB already has a "full ride" to his public school, so what would they be offering him that he doesn't already have?
And who would want a kid that would jump ship and change schools at that time that easily? What kind of character or judgement does that show?"
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Gary,
What would they be offering him? Maybe a better education that he isn't getting at that public school. Maybe that public school is in a terrible area and he is actually scared everyday at school. I'm just creating some scenarios.
Also, I'm not questioning that it would not show bad character but how many people, coaches, athletes would care? Again, I would care, I'm all about integrity of the sports and competition but we all know the ugly truth... there are many, many people out there that don't"
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Kevin, I agree with much of that. Though I will throw out there that not all public schools offer bad educations or experiences (though I know some do) and certainly not all parochial schools offer good ones (though again I know some do). But I understand what you are saying.
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Discussion Topic: Public vs. Private Schools Athletics
Kevin Petrella added to this discussion on March 3, 2010
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Would we both agree (as well) that we would not like to see this happen?
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Discussion Topic: Public vs. Private Schools Athletics
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on March 3, 2010
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Quote from Kevin Petrella's post:
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"Would we both agree (as well) that we would not like to see this happen?"
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Not necessarily. I understand some of the problems/issue with splitting them, but I also acknowledge the inherent advantages privates, parochials, and open enrollment publics have over what I consider the tradtional schools that only draw students from one zip code instead of multiple counties like Ignatius, Eds, and I am sure others.
Maybe it has always been like this even before athletics became "big business" but something strikes me as unfair when Eds can get a Jewish wrestler from the east side and SVSM can get a group of Baptist basketball players that they build their programs around. I have long been curious how many Jewish students has Eds had other than Fried, or how many Baptists has SVSM had other than James and his band of mercenaries.
Understood that each was exceptional in what they did, but that Catholic schools pull them in and clearly utilize them for athletic advantages just strikes me wrong. Of course SVSM clearly sold their soul when they took tens of thousand of dollars from the unwed father of two to build their athletic center. But that is another subject.
So to answer your question I see the inequity in this and do think something should be done. What exactly, I have no clue.
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