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Discussion Topic: New Rules to grow wrestling
Brian Nicola added to this discussion on February 10, 2010
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Once, I got rode for 6:32 in college by an Illinois kid. I felt like someone had beat my lower back with a shovel. I digress.
Anything that forces the action I am for, however, the mat is often ignored. I like riding time in college.
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Discussion Topic: New Rules to grow wrestling
Roe Fox added to this discussion on February 10, 2010
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Back to the stupid comment, I have spent my whole life engaged in wrestling from the 4th grade, I am now 40, I wrestled in 4 Junior National Tournaments, 4 NCAA DI Tournaments, 10 National Opens, and 2 Final Olympic Trials and did ok in all of them, I coached 5 years at tOSU and while admittedly we were not overall a good team we did produce 7 AAs in that span, I coached 5 years in the high school rank. I like to think about wrestling now as much as I use to enjoy competing. It is part of my daily ritual and my thoughts revolve and reflect wrestling.I typically don't open my mouth unless I have something worthwhile to say.
Rex: You wasted about 30 seconds of your life writing that. Not necessary on this forum. Most understand your points and appreciate them, even if we don't always agree with them.
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Discussion Topic: New Rules to grow wrestling
Bill Splete added to this discussion on February 10, 2010
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Rex,
I love the idea. The riding time does the sport no justice. It appears that the reward is in staying on top and not getting backs. We all know that most of those guys aren't leaving the hip and are hooking the leg. this is my take.
1. We define stalling on the mat like the feet. If your working to score, legit, turn, then you are able to control from the top. I believe ohio refs, for years have been able to determine this, but this year that 1 minute ride is obvious and has to stop. I give the refs my 2 cents often, but all in all ohio refs are the best of the best. Let them set the standard for stalling on the mat.
2. That is why I have always love ohio wrestling. you must work for a takedown, and if your not out to the side working a turn your stalling wether for 10 seconds or 30 I like the way we used to call it.
The big ten network has made riding time like bull riding except you can do all match. This makes the match move slow. like when L. Palmer had about 4.5 minutes of riding on the Michigan kid, he may have had one turn in that whole time, the match drags. I want to see scoring, john smith, tom,terry brands style. they use to take breaks after the match, mow guys get a lead and sit. We had gold medalist because we were always scoring. smith, brands, cross, sanderson,etc. these are our greats because they kept scoring on their feet and on the mat.
that's my two cents, more a rant but I agree with rex riding time has got to go!
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Discussion Topic: New Rules to grow wrestling
Bill Splete added to this discussion on February 10, 2010
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Jim,
I did not read your post before I wrote the last, Your take on the penalties for not turning, by losing riding time and the thought that you need to score backs to keep it. Also the stalling call eliminates your riding time. That's what I'm talking about with rule changes, Those could work and be implemented. I would leave tha attempt up to the referee we trust him with enough judgement calls, this would also fall under that.
I don't think Rex wants to eliminate the top position, but make the offense action accountable and rewarded
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Discussion Topic: New Rules to grow wrestling
Jeff Sitler added to this discussion on February 10, 2010
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How about getting rid of all the tournaments? Allow a team 2 tournaments and everything else has to be a dual or a tri. This allows people to be casual fans that may grow into more committed fans. I know tournaments allow for more wrestling, but it doesn't allow for someone to come and stay for 90-120 minutes and call it a day. You can't grow new fans by making them sit for 8-10 hours all day long to see thier kid or grandkid or sibling or friend.
I think all these tournaments, while great for the wrestler are killing the sport.
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Discussion Topic: New Rules to grow wrestling
Leo Zimmer added to this discussion on February 10, 2010
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I typically read every word that Rex writes on this forum... I can honestly say this is his first reference to "humping whales".
I believe this has been mentioned already, but I like the idea of not awarding the RT point unless that wrestler has also scored NF points.
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Discussion Topic: New Rules to grow wrestling
Ben Golden added to this discussion on February 10, 2010
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Quote from Bill Splete's post:
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"
The big ten network has made riding time like bull riding except you can do all match. This makes the match move slow. like when L. Palmer had about 4.5 minutes of riding on the Michigan kid, he may have had one turn in that whole time, the match drags."
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I know what you mean in general, but in this particular case Lance still had 9 takedowns in the match. I thought did a good job keeping scoring from his feet even late in the third. He spend so much time riding because he was trying to get a turn so he could get 5 team points rather than a 4-point tech.
Now, I realize this is a reflection of the rules, which is what you are arguing against.
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Discussion Topic: New Rules to grow wrestling
Harry Lester added to this discussion on February 10, 2010
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Rex
I love the ideas. Watching wrestling is very intense and engaging, but I usually find myself drifting away when someone is just riding someone. I think most guys have moved away from trying to turn and pin the guy. I recently had the chance to watch some film from guys in the 70s and 80s and they were takedown and turning machines. In almost every match I watched there was action throughout the whole match. You just don't see that anymore. For what it's worth I love the ideas.
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Discussion Topic: New Rules to grow wrestling
John Ice added to this discussion on February 10, 2010
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Bottom man has got to take some heat also. What happened to exploding on the whistle? How many guys just flatten out and make it easy for the top guy?
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Discussion Topic: New Rules to grow wrestling
Rex Holman added to this discussion on February 11, 2010
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"I got rode for 6:32 in college by an Illinois kid.
I like riding time in college".
Brian, you teed that one up to be taken out of context.
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Discussion Topic: New Rules to grow wrestling
Rex Holman added to this discussion on February 11, 2010
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Roe-
Thanks. Just venting. It is amazing that for like the 15,000th time in my life, a single petty comment can trigger the anger response.
The interesting thing about the universe and I sh** you not, I just finished a book entitled Overcoming Anger, the audio CD I am listening to is on perception and the Evolution of anger was what "happened" to be on this day and how it relates to the limbic system and cerebral cortex.
Anger is a conditioned response to a stimuli learned over a period of time which has its intitial fundamental basis in frustration and sadness. As humans over animal, we have a choice in our response but it takes relearning an appropriate response, which is not so easily accomplished.
Anyway, there is a blessing in each of life's lessons.
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Last edited by Rex Holman on February 11, 2010; edited 2 times in total
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Discussion Topic: New Rules to grow wrestling
Rex Holman added to this discussion on February 11, 2010
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Bill-
You hit it on the head as I do not want to get rid of top and bottom wrestling, just the inclination to ride and it's reward system. Riding is rewarded under the current rules and format. I want to reward and promote excellent wrestling rather than relative noncommittal inaction.
After further thought, The top man could no longer drop to a single leg and hang on it; it would incur an immediate stalling infraction, either a warning or a point. This makes scoring a takedown an immediate proposition of continuous wrestling without relative security. Also, if the man can score on top within 18 seconds, he gets an extension up to a minute, referees decision dependent upon action.
Assigning points needs to be scrutinized from different perspectives as to ensure fairness and motivation for the athletes to engage. Each reward(point) will be be pursued with motivation tied to an end point. i.e. when a takedown is scored then it is imperative that both wrestlers are active from their respective position and looking to score for the alloted time because there are direct and immediate consequences to both wrestlers inside of an 18 second period. 1)the escape 2)the reversal 3)penalty calls 4)back points. As it stands right now the consequences are too soft.
Here is my experience and a experiment for you to try. Have guys wrestle top and bottom for 1 minute goes and then have them go for 20 second goes. After the exercise, draw a conclusion as to which provided more intensity and action. If it does not generate more intensity, guess what only 20 seconds elapsed and not a minute.
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Discussion Topic: New Rules to grow wrestling
Rex Holman added to this discussion on February 11, 2010
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Harry-
Thanks
John-
I read your post regarding riding time and am in agreement with your principles, but I want to keep it simple so that the average fan who we are trying to attract can follow with relative ease. I would like the official to have discretion to determine whether the top man is busy enough to bring them up to their feet if there was an extension of the initial top position.
I think the principles to adhere to in growing wrestling are:
1) Maintain the integrity of the sport
2) Do not reward riding
3) Increase action and encourage action through rule change and
4) Simplify the rules
I respect NFL football and it is the biggest game in our country. I think we can learn a lot from their model. I heard Dan Marino mention how much the game has changed since he played. Encouraging passing and action. They offer a great product. An NFL game is a product/ion. I will make the food analogy. It is easily digested and offers so many things for so many people. Wrestling is a niche cuisine that you have to hunt down and find. It is only available at certain times and the quality and presentation is hit or miss. It may be a little gamey to some people. Thus, wrestling needs to improve it's availability, it's presentation, it's consistency and take away the gamieness(don't know if that is a word, but it reflects qualities that only a staunch advocate could swallow) and make it more palatable to the masses.
JMHO
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Discussion Topic: New Rules to grow wrestling
Rex Holman added to this discussion on February 11, 2010
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Calling out Ken Sr-
Question, as I know you refereed through the Zone era of wrestling.
What are the relative merits and shortcomings of the Zone in wrestling. Do you think it could be applied to collegiate wrestling without abuse and unintended consequence?
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Discussion Topic: New Rules to grow wrestling
Rex Holman added to this discussion on February 11, 2010
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Wrestling is the proverbial taco cart on the south side of town that serves up the best food, but no one would know it because of cultural and location barriers.
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