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Discussion Topic: A tie? Graham, Apple Valley (MN) move up to co-#1 national ranking
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on February 8, 2010
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Discussion Topic: A tie? Graham, Apple Valley (MN) move up to co-#1 national ranking
Ben Golden added to this discussion on February 8, 2010
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I can only imagine the response of the hooligans out there. I respect rankings as 1 guy's/group's opinion and use them for entertainment and as a general indicator of talent level. Other people take them much more seriously, and I'm sure won't be happy about this (though they wouldn't have been happy no matter what).
Like Hank, I'm glad I don't have your job.
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Discussion Topic: A tie? Graham, Apple Valley (MN) move up to co-#1 national ranking
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on February 8, 2010
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as the oldest of the rankings, since 1955 Am Wr News tries to be FAIR & accurate-- schools do take it seriously because they work so hard to be recognized and its important to a community.
in this case i couldnt really distinguish between the top 2 no matter how i looked at it. i got some expert opinions and btw they almost all leaned to SPG ---but i couldnt find anything but greatness in Apple Valley's season, not their fault they can travel only 600 miles.
top 2 wont change unless one is upset or has poor state tourn. s/BobP
AWN PREP 40 2/8/10
1. (TIE) St. Paris Graham Ohio
1. Apple Valley Minn.
3. Blair Academy N.J.
4. Brandon Fla.
5. Wyoming Seminary Pa.
6. Central Dauphin Pa.
7. Central Mountain Pa.
8. Wadsworth Ohio
9. Collins Hill Ga.
10. St. Edward Ohio
11. St. Mark Del.
12. Simley Minn.
13. Montini Catholic Ill.
14. Wisconsin Rapids Wisc.
15. Park Hill Mo.
16. Bishop Lynch Tx.
17. Clovis Calif.
18. Mishawaka Indiana
19. Cox Va.
20. Waverly-Shell Rock Iowa
21. Roseburg Oreg.
22. Oviedo Fla.
23. Grand Island Neb.
24. Lowell Mich.
25. Sussex Central Del.
26. Broken Arrow Okla.
27. Muskogee Okla.
28. Nazareth Pa.
29. Millard Utah
30. Parkland Pa.
31. Huxley Ballard Iowa
32. Minooka Ill.
33. Hermiston Oregon
34. High Point N.J.
35. Long Branch N.J.
36. Connelsville Pa
37. Bakersfield Calif.
38. Jackson Memorial N.J.
39. Bettendorf Iowa
40. Marmion Academy Ill.
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Discussion Topic: A tie? Graham, Apple Valley (MN) move up to co-#1 national ranking
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on February 8, 2010
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This is why the mythical National Champion for high school wrestling is just that, a myth.
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Discussion Topic: A tie? Graham, Apple Valley (MN) move up to co-#1 national ranking
Jeff Abbott added to this discussion on February 8, 2010
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So how will the signs these two schools put up read? National wrestling champions or CO-National Wrestling champions? I guess Graham could just put a 2 in front of the one they have now.
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Discussion Topic: A tie? Graham, Apple Valley (MN) move up to co-#1 national ranking
Ben Golden added to this discussion on February 9, 2010
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Quote from Michael Rodriguez's post:
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"This is why the mythical National Champion for high school wrestling is just that, a myth."
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Bingo. I don't see a problem with it either, and I'm appreciative for all the work Bob and other rankers do because I like reviewing the rankings. Some people act like some referee awarded a bad takedown and screwed their team out of the title, though.
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Discussion Topic: A tie? Graham, Apple Valley (MN) move up to co-#1 national ranking
Roe Fox added to this discussion on February 9, 2010
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Bob:
I am one who appreciates your effort in all your ranknigs and find them enjoyable to read,
However, if you, "got some expert opinions and btw they almost all leaned to SPG," then I see no rational reason why you (1) would wait the extra week to rank in order to get other's opinions and (2) would supplant those expert opinions with your own.
SPG should then be 1 and the only reason to do two number 1s is to appease the AV supporters. The latter have very good reason to suggest AV is 1 but unfortunately you only feed into their accusations that your rankings are political, not fact based; otherwise, follow the experts.
I don't know Jordan personally but by his actions the last year or two I doubt AV will have to go far to wrestle SPG: I imagine he is already trying to find a way to get there this year (doubtful) or next.
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Discussion Topic: A tie? Graham, Apple Valley (MN) move up to co-#1 national ranking
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on February 9, 2010
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Quote from Ben Golden's post:
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"
Bingo. I don't see a problem with it either, and I'm appreciative for all the work Bob and other rankers do because I like reviewing the rankings. Some people act like some referee awarded a bad takedown and screwed their team out of the title, though."
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Great point concerning people thinking they got jobbed on these rankings!
I can just picture it now... Throngs of people, on the edge of their seats, waiting for the news to come out... Then it does and the place erupts in anger!!! "Oh come on, Bob!!!!!!!"
In five or ten years, at a corner bar somewhere, some fan will let us all know the insider-info he received that (enter your team here) was Bob's real choice for #1, but he didn't want to upset the other market.
Aaahh!!!
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Discussion Topic: A tie? Graham, Apple Valley (MN) move up to co-#1 national ranking
Ben Golden added to this discussion on February 9, 2010
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Quote from Roe Fox's post:
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"Bob:
I am one who appreciates your effort in all your ranknigs and find them enjoyable to read,
However, if you, "got some expert opinions and btw they almost all leaned to SPG," then I see no rational reason why you (1) would wait the extra week to rank in order to get other's opinions and (2) would supplant those expert opinions with your own.
SPG should then be 1 and the only reason to do two number 1s is to appease the AV supporters. The latter have very good reason to suggest AV is 1 but unfortunately you only feed into their accusations that your rankings are political, not fact based; otherwise, follow the experts.
I don't know Jordan personally but by his actions the last year or two I doubt AV will have to go far to wrestle SPG: I imagine he is already trying to find a way to get there this year (doubtful) or next."
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I don't think it's possible next year since they are already traveling to Blair. Someone may correct me on this...
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Discussion Topic: A tie? Graham, Apple Valley (MN) move up to co-#1 national ranking
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on February 9, 2010
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I know it was done in college football for years, but do teams really get that into declaring themselves a "champion" just based on one person's opinion? Nothing at all against Bob, I would ask the same no matter whose opinion we are discussing.
Sounds like teams should just declare themselves the champion of whatever they actually achieve on the mat and not be concerned with what cannot be proven.
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Discussion Topic: A tie? Graham, Apple Valley (MN) move up to co-#1 national ranking
Joe Boardwine added to this discussion on February 9, 2010
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I had a chance to see Apple Valley at the Cheesehead in WI
They are very, very tough
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Discussion Topic: A tie? Graham, Apple Valley (MN) move up to co-#1 national ranking
Tom Elmer added to this discussion on February 9, 2010
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Quote from Joe Boardwine's post:
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"I had a chance to see Apple Valley at the Cheesehead in WI
They are very, very tough"
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Joe, Tougher then Graham? Graham beat St Eds and Blair soundly in duals. At the Ironman Blair wins big minus stud 135 ponder Ormsbee BUT Graham was down 3 starters including 2 - Bo Jordan and Fellipe Martinez - who IMO should place high. I defer to you who has seen AV as I have not but Graham is deserving. If only we had the results of Wadsworth and Graham to add to the equation but we didnt.I am glad I don't have Bob's job to rank these teams and respect the way he has ranked them with all he had to go on.
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Discussion Topic: A tie? Graham, Apple Valley (MN) move up to co-#1 national ranking
Joe Boardwine added to this discussion on February 9, 2010
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Joe, Tougher then Graham? Graham beat St Eds and Blair soundly in duals. At the Ironman Blair wins big minus stud 135 ponder Ormsbee BUT Graham was down 3 starters including 2 - Bo Jordan and Fellipe Martinez - who IMO should place high. I defer to you who has seen AV as I have not but Graham is deserving. If only we had the results of Wadsworth and Graham to add to the equation but we didnt.I am glad I don't have Bob's job to rank these teams and respect the way he has ranked them with all he had to go on.[/quote]
I am not sure. It's a tough call. They are excellent. I think a dual between Graham and Apple Valley would be a war. As good as Ed's is, I don't think they would have any chance to defeat Apple Valley in a dual this year. Just my opinion.
Similar squads actually - Graham and AV. Two things that really impressed me about AV were: 1) their physicality - the entire line-up full of just big, strong athletes who were all "big" for their weight (i.e. at their best weight) - and 2) their ability to wrestle a complete match (i.e. in all three positions) - particularly tough on top. But Graham is obviously great this year too.
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Discussion Topic: A tie? Graham, Apple Valley (MN) move up to co-#1 national ranking
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on February 9, 2010
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MikeR,
yes, thats why at AWN we have ALWAYS refered to it as the "mythical" national title.
AWN's Prep 40 is the oldest, most established so i guess people want to see it. In this internet age others come and go-- AWN been around a long time, out of Oklahoma.
RF,
fyi, a week off was done to ponder it all, to have all the relevant info and to try to be fair-- don't know why u wouldnt understand that process? Time was not of the essence, accuracy was.
Example, the opinions of the 2 high ranked teams coaches, Montini Illinois and Wy Seminary PA, that faced both AV and SPG were important, i sought those expert opinions.
i even asked veteran Rob Sherrill of WIN magazine to do a wt by wt analysis. WHY? so that no one could say we werent being fair and thorough.
In the end while most experts i contacted favored SPG, AV did have a great UNdefeated season vs good comp, and in the words of coach Scot Davis of Owatonna MN-- btw, he is THE national all-time leader in dual meet wins-- "AV is the greatest team in Minnesota history." --(And Joe Boardwine of Walsh Jesuit has also expressed his firsthand opinion to how good AV is).
So AWN thinks co-champs was the best alternative in this situation since no clear distinguishment could be made between the two as of today, in our opinion. s/BobP
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Discussion Topic: A tie? Graham, Apple Valley (MN) move up to co-#1 national ranking
Roe Fox added to this discussion on February 9, 2010
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" don't know why u wouldnt understand that process?"
Actually that is a knee-jerk conclusion to which my post offers no support. In fact, my point is I do understand why you used that process. My lack of understanding is in disregarding the result of that process.
I'm not from SPG so I have no dog in the fight. I haven't seen AV wrestle (only their results). I know if I was ranking -- and I'm not so you can have it -- I would likely follow the majority of the experts if that was my point for the process.
You do a good job. Thanks for your effort.
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