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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Ken Ramsey Sr. added to this discussion on February 26, 2010
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Quote from Mark Palumbo's post:
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"Don’t you think that having 3 divisions brings more attention to our sport in Ohio? Article like “He could be a four time state champ” or “He is the first state champ from his school” or “The team may make a run at a title” bring much needed good press to our sport and state. I also think that in a state as deep as Ohio, the state placements of kids bring attention not only to the athlete but to college coaches. At first glance they look at paper before digging deeper, so it gives them a good starting point. The notoriety is a good thing. I like the three divisions in Ohio and I like the multiple divisions in college. I know by going to a one division system it would crown a true state champ and have better match ups to watch, but I think you do more harm than good by consolidating the ranks and thus bringing less attention to the sport, which is hurting at college level. Have all star meets, talk up state champ vs state champ angle, and market the nationals well. I don’t want to see it end up like men’s gymnastics with only a hand full of teams. With one division power house teams would rule the state and get all the press. On a side note, I don’t want to see any more divisions either."
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I like the way you present your thoughts on this. This is a better way to put what I was trying to say. I like the way it is too, but what I would like to see added is: an additional competition for Champ of Champs. You would have mini tournament of all 2nd and 3rd place winners in each weight class/division. The winner would give you 4 champs for each weight class and a two match championship to see a true 1 division champion. Another alternative would be to wrestle a round robbin between the 3 champs to crown a 1 division champion with a tie breaker system in case of ties. This would give wrestling additional coverage and a highly anticipated competion for fans.
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Ken Ramsey Sr. added to this discussion on February 27, 2010
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Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
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""I don't think you will find too many college coaches think state titles in Ohio are cheapened by the number of them. Usually any of the three would fit into a D1 program somewhere, especially if they are multiple champs."
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KenR sr, you are kidding, right ?? how many Ohio kids are wrestling right now in College Div I as STARTERS, meaning they are usually geting athletic schol $$ ? I don't know but its not that many total.
let's add it up, this only approximate but its close. Div I gives most of the wrestling athletic schols, and there are only 81 Div colleges now, if everyone gave the max of 9.9-- which they don't--- that still would only be 810 wrestling schols for Div I, but I know its less. And that is over FOUR to FIVE years, not in any one year. Add in Div II and NAIA and maybe the number approaches 1000 let's say.
1000 wrestling athletic schols is not alot, when u consider that is NOT given every year, but in force at any given time thats all u can have on your roster nationally. So EACH YEAR only 200 to 250 are given when u consider some colleges redshirt certain kids for 5 years and not every Div I gives the 9.9 max and Div II gives much less and there aren't many NAIA colleges.
Thats it, 200 to 250 schols a year given out. So those are split up and divided up and parcelled out over all the states that wrestle. Doesnt amount to much does it ??
Even in an elite state like Ohio, this years senior class recruits won't add up to much athletic schol money.
so just being a state champ even in Ohio doesnt mean anything to college recruiters-- 2Xer means more but its all about WHO you've beaten, how tough the comp was? did you place in Fargo Junior Nationals, or place high at NHSCA Jr & Sr nationals VA Beach? are you in a hard to fill weight class like 125, 184, 197, 285, then you are more valuable.
College coaches have too little to give to be swayed just by who won state or even who won state twice, its a much much deeper analysis than that-- because theres very little $$ to go around nationally. So they aren't being swayed just by the terminology "state champ".
and personally when I help do rankings for Am Wr News, I know we look extra hard at elite one class states like NJ and California-- and Indiana too. That goes for Ironman seeding criteria too. s/BobP"
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You are kidding, right? Ohio gets more than their share of scholarship money, most of that money comes from NCAA D1 and NAIA. Over the years much of that money has gone to Ohio D2 and D3 wrestlers and seeing that you do some of the National HS ratings, I'm sure you see that. Multi divisions states like Utah, the Dakotas, PA, Iowa, Illinois and Ohio receive much of that scholarship money also. Because a state has 1 division it does not make that champ any better than a champ of a 3 division state. California is the best example, it has a huge state that is highly populated, but their champs do not seem to apply your theory of being better at the next level (college). While PA and Ohio, states with multi-divisions, year in and out lead in college champs and all-Americans
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on February 28, 2010
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"Ohio gets more than their share of scholarship money, -- --. Over the years much of that money has gone to Ohio D2 and D3 wrestlers and seeing that you do some of the National HS ratings, I'm sure you see that. Multi divisions states like Utah, the Dakotas, PA, Iowa, Illinois and Ohio receive much of that scholarship money also."
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what?? come on Ken, make sense-- Utah is one of the most absurd states with 5 classes and very very few schools in each class. In states like the Dakotas a team can enter MORE THAN ONE WRESTLER in each weight class at state, yes its true.
fact is Ohio & PA get alot of college scholarship money relative to other states because of superior wrestling in Ohio & PA-- & NJ & Calif & NY & illinois & Iowa to name the BIG SEVEN with Michigan & Missouri & Minnesota coming on recently, and Oklahoma fading.
Yes i said one class NJ & California get alot of schol money too. After all almost every year right behind top dog PA in # of NCAA Div I Quals are Ohio, NJ, Illinois, California, NY.
awarding college schols is about superior wrestling vs tough comp, Not the number of state champs. The title "State champ" alone means little to a college coach. After all in the USA we crown approximately 1,800 state champs every year.
College coaches look at WHO you've beaten and how tough the COMP was, to begin with, among other attributes. No coach who contacts me asks who are Ohio's state champs. After all its their livlihood and they need precise relevant info.
And colleges give approximately 250 Full wrestling schols, almost all of them divided up into who knows how many indiv schols. Not much to go around so college coaches have to look much much deeper than just whose a state champs. ---Multiple classes or divisions just water things down, they don't enhance anyones ability to get a scholarship. s/BobP
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Ken Ramsey Sr. added to this discussion on February 28, 2010
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Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
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""Ohio gets more than their share of scholarship money, -- --. Over the years much of that money has gone to Ohio D2 and D3 wrestlers and seeing that you do some of the National HS ratings, I'm sure you see that. Multi divisions states like Utah, the Dakotas, PA, Iowa, Illinois and Ohio receive much of that scholarship money also."
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what?? come on Ken, make sense-- Utah is one of the most absurd states with 5 classes and very very few schools in each class. In states like the Dakotas a team can enter MORE THAN ONE WRESTLER in each weight class at state, yes its true.
fact is Ohio & PA get alot of college scholarship money relative to other states because of superior wrestling in Ohio & PA-- & NJ & Calif & NY & illinois & Iowa to name the BIG SEVEN with Michigan & Missouri & Minnesota coming on recently, and Oklahoma fading.
Yes I said one class NJ & California get alot of schol money too. After all almost every year right behind top dog PA in # of NCAA Div I Quals are Ohio, NJ, Illinois, California, NY.
awarding college schols is about superior wrestling vs tough comp, Not the number of state champs. The title "State champ" alone means little to a college coach. After all in the USA we crown approximately 1,800 state champs every year.
College coaches look at WHO you've beaten and how tough the COMP was, to begin with, among other attributes. No coach who contacts me asks who are Ohio's state champs. After all its their livlihood and they need precise relevant info.
And colleges give approximately 250 Full wrestling schols, almost all of them divided up into who knows how many indiv schols. Not much to go around so college coaches have to look much much deeper than just whose a state champs. ---Multiple classes or divisions just water things down, they don't enhance anyones ability to get a scholarship. s/BobP"
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My point is, it doesn't hurt them either. Ohio is always among the top states receiving scholarship money and states like Utah, the Dakotas and other small participation states with multiple divisions also garner scholarship money due to the quality of wrestlers. Multiple divisions or 1 division states matter little to college recruiters and whether a wrestler is a state champion or not, does matter in some regards. But if a wrestler is a state champion and competes well in National competitions, he is very likely to receive some scholarship money. Being that many schools award the full 9.9 in D1 and there are many scholarships in NAIA, your 250 scholarships are very low for the amount actually awarded. Aren't there still near 60 D1 teams and nearly 40 NAIA teams? If those teams averaged 6 scholarships per school, wouldnt that be 600 available full scholarships, conservatively speaking?
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Mike Leedy added to this discussion on March 15, 2010
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My only argument against multiple divisions is, there are many state placers who would not make it to state in another div. How is this fair to the many wrestlers who work just as hard and sometimes are better than their division counterparts? All of my boys have beaten several state placers from other div's. only to never make it to state, Is that fair? Recruitment wise, the title state placer might mean nothing but in the kids eyes it might mean the difference between continuing or not.
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