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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on February 23, 2010
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BradyH,
we've been thru that already-- we all know and i said already that in a true TEAM sport like football of course enrollment numbers matter alot, thus Divisions are necessary ---
but in indiv sports like track & field and wrestling the best runner or wrestler in a state can be from anywhere. i think it would be exciting to find out who is the best in each weight class, rather the 3 Div watered down thing we have now, but i see many posters disagree-- so be it.
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on February 23, 2010
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I'm with Bob on this one.
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Ken Ramsey Sr. added to this discussion on February 23, 2010
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Quote from Gary Sommers's post:
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Quote from Brady Hiatt's post:
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Quote from Gary Sommers's post:
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""With 336 state placers it gives more recognition to the kids and opens them up to many opportunities beyond high school"
But you run the risk of cheapening the value of that recognition. Anytime there is too much of something its value diminishes. A basic economic principle that might apply here as well."
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"It's value" is only cheapened in the minds of some adults -- not in the minds of the athletes.
Dan -- unless you've lived the life of a wrestling coach at a small school for quite a few years, it is hard to truly appreciate. I had 18 kids on my Mechanicsburg team this year. This is the most we've every had -- and of those 18, ZERO were one sport athletes and only TWO didn't participate in three sports. We generally graduate around 60 students per year. The life in my room is much different that the life in an Oregon Clay room where the number of wrestlers that came out for their team was approximately equal to 80% of the boys in our entire high school."
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Brady, I agree with that. But that is primarily due to kids not having the perspective of adults.
And I was responding to a post where it was said that this would make the champs more "valuable" or marketable to potential colleges. However, colleges are coached and recruited for by adults who would recognize the cheapened nature of the titles.
No doubt a state championship is a state championship nonetheless, and are never easy to achieve. But it is just common sense that the more there is of something the less value any one of them have."
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I don't think you will find too many college coaches think state titles in Ohio are cheapened by the number of them. Usually any of the three would fit into a D1 program somewhere, especially if they are multiple champs.
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on February 24, 2010
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Quote from Ken Ramsey Sr.'s post:
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Quote from Gary Sommers's post:
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Quote from Brady Hiatt's post:
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Quote from Gary Sommers's post:
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""With 336 state placers it gives more recognition to the kids and opens them up to many opportunities beyond high school"
But you run the risk of cheapening the value of that recognition. Anytime there is too much of something its value diminishes. A basic economic principle that might apply here as well."
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"It's value" is only cheapened in the minds of some adults -- not in the minds of the athletes.
Dan -- unless you've lived the life of a wrestling coach at a small school for quite a few years, it is hard to truly appreciate. I had 18 kids on my Mechanicsburg team this year. This is the most we've every had -- and of those 18, ZERO were one sport athletes and only TWO didn't participate in three sports. We generally graduate around 60 students per year. The life in my room is much different that the life in an Oregon Clay room where the number of wrestlers that came out for their team was approximately equal to 80% of the boys in our entire high school."
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Brady, I agree with that. But that is primarily due to kids not having the perspective of adults.
And I was responding to a post where it was said that this would make the champs more "valuable" or marketable to potential colleges. However, colleges are coached and recruited for by adults who would recognize the cheapened nature of the titles.
No doubt a state championship is a state championship nonetheless, and are never easy to achieve. But it is just common sense that the more there is of something the less value any one of them have."
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I don't think you will find too many college coaches think state titles in Ohio are cheapened by the number of them. Usually any of the three would fit into a D1 program somewhere, especially if they are multiple champs."
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Ken, we can agree to disagree. To me, again, it is just a basic economic principle. The higher the quantity, the lower the value.
Plus, I am guessing, the college coaches would not downgrade any particular wrestler as a college prospect if they had no championships in a one-division system depending on who beat them v. if they won two or three in a multi-division system where the opportunites for titles were much greater and probably the competition at least somewhat weaker.
In other words, the boy is being recruited on his ability and projectability and not on the number of championships his particular state provides the opportunity to win.
I first started thinking about this many years ago when my wife was coaching track and field at Nordonia. She had a girl win the discus in Class AAA at that time, and I remember looking to see if the girl had the best throw in all divisions, which she did. I just thought that if someone in another division had a better throw than the championship might not mean as much. Maybe that was just me, but the thought crossed my mind.
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Tim Courtad added to this discussion on February 24, 2010
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Three divisions with 14 weight classes. You got to love the make people feel good "American Way". They don't keep score in my sons t-ball or soccer leagues either. The kids would be mentally ruined for the rest of their lives if they lost in a pee-wee game (LOL). All I can say is that you need to schedule your team the best competition, so your wrestlers can compete against all of the tough guys in their weight class. Some of the most successful college wrestlers from Ohio are from division 3. To name a few division 3 Ohio High School wrestlers that were division 1 college All Americans: Rowlands, Thatcher, Jaggers, Derlan, Myself and many more. Throw in Lester in freestyle. So there are plenty of good wrestlers. How many times do we watch two studs in the same weight class not wrestle each other side by side in the state finals?
The following options I would like to see:
1) 32 man bracket with one division, placing top 8. Then score three division team championships.
2) Two divisions with a 16 man bracket placing top 8.
That is still 448 state Qualifiers and a lot better quality matchups.
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Mark Palumbo added to this discussion on February 24, 2010
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Don’t you think that having 3 divisions brings more attention to our sport in Ohio? Article like “He could be a four time state champ” or “He is the first state champ from his school” or “The team may make a run at a title” bring much needed good press to our sport and state. I also think that in a state as deep as Ohio, the state placements of kids bring attention not only to the athlete but to college coaches. At first glance they look at paper before digging deeper, so it gives them a good starting point. The notoriety is a good thing. I like the three divisions in Ohio and I like the multiple divisions in college. I know by going to a one division system it would crown a true state champ and have better match ups to watch, but I think you do more harm than good by consolidating the ranks and thus bringing less attention to the sport, which is hurting at college level. Have all star meets, talk up state champ vs state champ angle, and market the nationals well. I don’t want to see it end up like men’s gymnastics with only a hand full of teams. With one division power house teams would rule the state and get all the press. On a side note, I don’t want to see any more divisions either.
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Joe Caprino added to this discussion on February 24, 2010
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Quote from Tim Courtad's post:
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"Three divisions with 14 weight classes. You got to love the make people feel good "American Way". They don't keep score in my sons t-ball or soccer leagues either. The kids would be mentally ruined for the rest of their lives if they lost in a pee-wee game (LOL). All I can say is that you need to schedule your team the best competition, so your wrestlers can compete against all of the tough guys in their weight class. Some of the most successful college wrestlers from Ohio are from division 3. To name a few division 3 Ohio High School wrestlers that were division 1 college All Americans: Rowlands, Thatcher, Jaggers, Derlan, Myself and many more. Throw in Lester in freestyle. So there are plenty of good wrestlers. How many times do we watch two studs in the same weight class not wrestle each other side by side in the state finals?
The following options I would like to see:
1) 32 man bracket with one division, placing top 8. Then score three division team championships.
2) Two divisions with a 16 man bracket placing top 8.
That is still 448 state Qualifiers and a lot better quality matchups."
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Do you have the same feelings for the NCAA that classes their championships? Is the NCAA all about the feel good "American Way?"
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on February 24, 2010
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"I don't think you will find too many college coaches think state titles in Ohio are cheapened by the number of them. Usually any of the three would fit into a D1 program somewhere, especially if they are multiple champs."
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KenR sr, you are kidding, right ?? how many Ohio kids are wrestling right now in College Div I as STARTERS, meaning they are usually geting athletic schol $$ ? i don't know but its not that many total.
let's add it up, this only approximate but its close. Div I gives most of the wrestling athletic schols, and there are only 81 Div colleges now, if everyone gave the max of 9.9-- which they don't--- that still would only be 810 wrestling schols for Div I, but i know its less. And that is over FOUR to FIVE years, not in any one year. Add in Div II and NAIA and maybe the number approaches 1000 let's say.
1000 wrestling athletic schols is not alot, when u consider that is NOT given every year, but in force at any given time thats all u can have on your roster nationally. So EACH YEAR only 200 to 250 are given when u consider some colleges redshirt certain kids for 5 years and not every Div I gives the 9.9 max and Div II gives much less and there aren't many NAIA colleges.
Thats it, 200 to 250 schols a year given out. So those are split up and divided up and parcelled out over all the states that wrestle. Doesnt amount to much does it ??
Even in an elite state like Ohio, this years senior class recruits wont add up to much athletic schol money.
so just being a state champ even in Ohio doesnt mean anything to college recruiters-- 2Xer means more but its all about WHO you've beaten, how tough the comp was? did you place in Fargo Junior Nationals, or place high at NHSCA Jr & Sr nationals VA Beach? are you in a hard to fill weight class like 125, 184, 197, 285, then you are more valuable.
College coaches have too little to give to be swayed just by who won state or even who won state twice, its a much much deeper analysis than that-- because theres very little $$ to go around nationally. So they aren't being swayed just by the terminology "state champ".
and personally when i help do rankings for Am Wr News, i know we look extra hard at elite one class states like NJ and California-- and Indiana too. That goes for Ironman seeding criteria too. s/BobP
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on February 24, 2010
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Quote from Joe Caprino's post:
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Quote from Tim Courtad's post:
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"Three divisions with 14 weight classes. You got to love the make people feel good "American Way". They don't keep score in my sons t-ball or soccer leagues either. The kids would be mentally ruined for the rest of their lives if they lost in a pee-wee game (LOL). All I can say is that you need to schedule your team the best competition, so your wrestlers can compete against all of the tough guys in their weight class. Some of the most successful college wrestlers from Ohio are from division 3. To name a few division 3 Ohio High School wrestlers that were division 1 college All Americans: Rowlands, Thatcher, Jaggers, Derlan, Myself and many more. Throw in Lester in freestyle. So there are plenty of good wrestlers. How many times do we watch two studs in the same weight class not wrestle each other side by side in the state finals?
The following options I would like to see:
1) 32 man bracket with one division, placing top 8. Then score three division team championships.
2) Two divisions with a 16 man bracket placing top 8.
That is still 448 state Qualifiers and a lot better quality matchups."
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Do you have the same feelings for the NCAA that classes their championships? Is the NCAA all about the feel good "American Way?""
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No comparison between high school and college. At all.
As I am sure you know college divisions are essentially based on scholarships given, and that can make a HUGE difference in who you can attract to your program. Though even in the case of colleges I have thought it a bit strange that the D-3 national champ in most any individual sport feels probably much better at the end of the season than the D-1 runnerup even though I would bet the runnerup is a MUCH better athlete than that D-3 champ.
The size of your high school has little (nothing?) to do with things when you step out alone onto the mat. Or the track. Or the balance beam, Or into the pool.
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Roe Fox added to this discussion on February 24, 2010
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"but in indiv sports like track & field and wrestling the best runner or wrestler in a state can be from anywhere."
In a vacuum I agree with this but I will tell you when I see the state championship times from, for example, cross country inevitiably the winning times in DI are better than DII which are better than DII. Are there exceptions? Of course, especially when the winning runner comes form a Magnificat or Walsh. But it is remarkable as I follow the times through sectionals, districts and states how there is a strong, but not perfect, correlation to school size and perfomrance.
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on February 24, 2010
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Quote from Roe Fox's post:
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""but in indiv sports like track & field and wrestling the best runner or wrestler in a state can be from anywhere."
In a vacuum I agree with this but I will tell you when I see the state championship times from, for example, cross country inevitiably the winning times in DI are better than DII which are better than DII. Are there exceptions? Of course, especially when the winning runner comes form a Magnificat or Walsh. But it is remarkable as I follow the times through sectionals, districts and states how there is a strong, but not perfect, correlation to school size and perfomrance."
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Roe, I have seen the same thing. I am not sure if the correlation is just that because there are so many more kids in the larger divisions there is just that much more probability that a better time will result.
But in an extremely objective sport like cross country, track, or swimming there is some sense of "unfairness" to me that someone with a worse time can be crowned a state champ just because their parents chose to live in a smaller community/school district. Sure, the parents of the kids at the larger schools could have chosen to live in Burton or Cuyahoga Heights instead of Mentor or Shaker, but it just seems kind of strange/wrong/"unfair" to me.
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Tim Courtad added to this discussion on February 24, 2010
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High school and college are totally different in many ways. I wouldn't care if there were twenty divisions in college. The more opportunity for kids to wrestle and get help with their education with money and or tutoring is great. The difference is you can choose what competition you want in college. If you want to beat the best then you wrestle the best in division 1. If you want to start and continue with wrestling, but don't care to be the best national champ then you can go to a smaller school. In high school you are placed in your division by where you live. Sometimes this means you don't get the best competition. The smaller divisions can have the best wrestlers, while college it's not the case.
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on February 24, 2010
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Quote from Tim Courtad's post:
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"High school and college are totally different in many ways. I wouldn't care if there were twenty divisions in college. The more opportunity for kids to wrestle and get help with their education with money and or tutoring is great. The difference is you can choose what competition you want in college. If you want to beat the best then you wrestle the best in division 1. If you want to start and continue with wrestling, but don't care to be the best national champ then you can go to a smaller school. In high school you are placed in your division by where you live. Sometimes this means you don't get the best competition. The smaller divisions can have the best wrestlers, while college it's not the case."
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Tim, great point. I suppose you could get some choice by attending a private or parochial school, though for many that might not be an option for a number or reasons. Or for a number of reasons they just might not want to consider that option.
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Joe Caprino added to this discussion on February 25, 2010
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Quote from Tim Courtad's post:
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"High school and college are totally different in many ways. I wouldn't care if there were twenty divisions in college. The more opportunity for kids to wrestle and get help with their education with money and or tutoring is great. The difference is you can choose what competition you want in college. If you want to beat the best then you wrestle the best in division 1. If you want to start and continue with wrestling, but don't care to be the best national champ then you can go to a smaller school. In high school you are placed in your division by where you live. Sometimes this means you don't get the best competition. The smaller divisions can have the best wrestlers, while college it's not the case."
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Both high school and college wrestling is classed based off resources. The resource is the only difference between the two, in college is is money and in high school is students. Those resources make a big difference in how good a program is. More money means more opportunity to have higher tier wrestlers, the same goes for more students.
If I have 1000 kids and you have 100, which group am I more likely to get the best wrestler out of? How about finding that best wrestler a solid practice partner or two?
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on February 25, 2010
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Quote from Joe Caprino's post:
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Quote from Tim Courtad's post:
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"High school and college are totally different in many ways. I wouldn't care if there were twenty divisions in college. The more opportunity for kids to wrestle and get help with their education with money and or tutoring is great. The difference is you can choose what competition you want in college. If you want to beat the best then you wrestle the best in division 1. If you want to start and continue with wrestling, but don't care to be the best national champ then you can go to a smaller school. In high school you are placed in your division by where you live. Sometimes this means you don't get the best competition. The smaller divisions can have the best wrestlers, while college it's not the case."
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Both high school and college wrestling is classed based off resources. The resource is the only difference between the two, in college is is money and in high school is students. Those resources make a big difference in how good a program is. More money means more opportunity to have higher tier wrestlers, the same goes for more students.
If I have 1000 kids and you have 100, which group am I more likely to get the best wrestler out of? How about finding that best wrestler a solid practice partner or two?"
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It depends. If that 100 has a number of hand-picked athletes like Regina basketball, Hawken swimming, Chanel wrestling, etc. then I will go with the smaller school. The small private/parochial schools that recruit athletes throw all the numbers of of whack.
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