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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Dan Cosimi added to this discussion on February 16, 2010
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Reality for Division 3 schools, especially public schools, is very different than the reality for Division 1 schools, especially private schools.
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I graduated in a class with 85 students.
Let's say half of them were male, that leaves 42-43 male students.
Let's say one third of them were varsity athletes. That leaves 14-15 male varsity athletes.
Let's say one third of those varsity athletes wrestle, one third play basketball and one third focus on other sports (for example the "I want to lift for football" point-of-view). That leaves 4-5 male varsity athletes who are wrestlers.
Let's say one third of those wrestlers enter their freshman year knowing something/anything about wrestling. That leaves 1-2 male varsity athletes who wrestle and have a wrestling background.
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Mentor High School is right next to us. They had about 850 students in my graduating class.
Let's say half of them were male, that leaves 425 male students.
Let's say one third of them were varsity athletes. That leaves 141-142 male varsity athletes.
Let's say one third of those varsity athletes wrestle, one third play basketball and one third focus on other sports (for example the "I want to lift for football" point-of-view). That leaves 47-48 male varsity athletes who are wrestlers.
Let's say even half of those wrestlers enter their freshman year knowing something/anything about wrestling. That leaves 15-16 male varsity athletes who wrestle and have a wrestling background.
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Now let's recap...
D3 Public High School: 1-2 male varsity athletes per class who wrestle and have a wrestling background.
D1 Public High School: 15-16 male varsity athletes per class who wrestle and have a wrestling background.
Multiply that by four (freshmen, sophomores, juniors and seniors) and you have 4-8 possible star wrestlers versus 60-64 possible star wrestlers.
And that doesn't count how dedicated the kid is.
That doesn't count how good the kid's drill partners are.
That doesn't count the kid's innate athleticism.
That doesn't count the kid's strength, coordination, conditioning, body awareness, etc.
That doesn't count injuries.
That doesn't count the kid's academics.
That doesn't count other intangibles such as family support, etc.
That certainly doesn't count pay-to-play.
Given sheer numbers, the room at a D1 public school is definitely going to be a lot better than the room at a D3 public school. Thus, to make the playing field relatively fair for kids from all schools, the OHSAA established divisions.
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on February 16, 2010
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your explanation i don't get, Dan-- fact is the best 125 and the beat 171 in Ohio both come from tiny Monroeville. Frequently the best come from a small school.
Big doesnt mean better individuals in wrestling. A kids ability to train & improve rests on alot of factors, many of them in his own hands like working out off-hours with other good wrestlers from other schools. Going to clubs, open mats, off season wrestling experience. Many big schools in Ohio have lousy teams and we know who they are.
everything is a variable, mostly not depending on size but on other factors such as coaching, scheduling, geographical location, ability to attend a club. The best sprinter or wrestler in Ohio could be from any school.
fans are cheated with 3 Div, i go back to year 2000 with Harry Lester, C.P. Schaltter, Mason Lenhard and Joe Pflug all at 119--- wouldnt it have been MUCH more exciting to have one class and one state champ per wt rather than watered-down 42 state champs and 336 state placers ??
in a true TEAM sport like football and baseball and hockey of course size matters alot, fielding a team depends so much on depth and numbers. But essentially sports like wrestling and track and swimming and gymnastics are individual sports.
as i said, wrestling Team trophies could still be awarded based on enrollment, just like now. s/BobP
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Pat Costilow added to this discussion on February 16, 2010
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My idea would be to have one big state tournament all the state qualifiers in the field- probably a 32 man bracket. Then break down points and award team trophies by division. I think that is kind of what Bob was getting at.
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Dan Cosimi added to this discussion on February 17, 2010
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Yes, the best 125 in the state is from a public school in Division 3, but the Monroeville Four are the exception, not the norm.
Comparing state champs to state champs is not the issue. Comparing your average D1 public school wrestler to your average D3 public school wrestler is the issue because they become (or don't become) those state champs or the drill partners for those state champs.
Take a great athlete like little Johnny Doe. Putting him into a D1 room -- let's say Mentor -- he'd be working out with the likes of Jack Young, who just broke the MHS record for career wins, and Jordan Victor, who qualified for the state tournament as a freshman. Putting him into a D3 room -- let's say Kirtland -- he'd be working out with a second-year (ever) wrestler at 103 and a third-year (ever) wrestler at 125, both of whom are hard workers and great kids but would battle to make it out of a D1 sectional. Based on drill partners alone, little Johnny Doe is going to be a much better wrestler coming from the Mentor room than he is coming from the Kirtland room, and that's a matter of numbers.
Another thing is this: We, at a small school, have other sports to compete with. We have many two- and three-sport athletes and a big reason why is because we are a small school. In 2007 and 2008, when we had 19 of 20 wrestlers advance out of our sectional, 100% of them were on the football team -- yes, even the 103-pounders -- and a lot of them were on the track and baseball teams in the spring. That just doesn't happen at a D1 school. As hard as we try as coaches, there's only so much time we can get kids to invest in our sport, and that becomes much less the more other sports, jobs, or any other activities these kids are involved in.
In the case of our undefeated 189-pounder, Royal Brettrager, his first ever off-season event was the Disney Duals this summer. First ever! Now, remember, he's an awesome football player -- made 19 tackles in the heartbreaking one-point loss against Ursuline -- and he might qualify for the state track meet in the hurdles -- so he doesn't have much time for off-season wrestling. He has never been to a wrestling camp. He went to one clinic that I drove him to. All the wrestling he does, and all the improvement he makes, is during the season. That's it. There's no more time. And he's our best, our leader. Needless to say, timewise, he's the norm at Kirtland, not the exception.
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on February 17, 2010
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Dan, these days unlike when I was in school most boys wrestle close to 12 months a year. Consequently who is in the room with them for the three or so months of the season is not nearly (though I know it does have importance) as important as it used to be.
Boys, regardless of their school size, have many opportunities to improve outside of their high school room. So I am still not sure that school size is much of a factor in this. Sure Mentor might be an example of this. But isn't Euclid a large school, or at least I know it used to be. How much better would Johnny Doe get attending there? Beachwood is a very small school. Yet Johnny would much more improve working with Dronzak, Harris, and Gross over whoever is at Euclid.
We can find specific examples that cut in both directions. Point is, wrestling is an individual sport and school size in general has little bearing on how good any one boy will be.
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on February 17, 2010
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2 states have one class at their state tourn, NJ & Calif. Each has had only one 4X state champ.
NJ uses 32 man bracket, 24 wrestlers qualify per wt with each of the 8 Regional champs getting a first round bye.
Calif was using a 32 man bracket, but now uses 64 with alot of byes in first round. i think Calif is like Ironman where many wts have more than 32 wrestlers.
yes, Pat, a 32 man bracket at state in Ohio would make sense. (or could even be 64 but would need to start wrestling earlier on Thursday, but so what?).
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Joe Caprino added to this discussion on February 17, 2010
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Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
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"Joe: Excellent post. You see the sport through the prism of what's best for the kids.
While this may be an old topic, it's new in that circumstances have changed. The major reason for having three divisions used to be that larger schools--in theory--have more kids wrestling. Hence, they have an advantage on smaller schools. Now, however, that's less true. In 2010, strong programs exist primarily in communities which value the sport. If you have a strong youth presence in your community, the high school program tends to have talent. Otherwise, the high school program usually stinks. There's less middle ground than there used to be and the middle school/jr high to high school feeder system really doesn't function well.
In the past, I've supported the idea of having three divisions but now I'm not so sure that those divisions should be based on population. Maybe it should be like hockey in greater Cleveland where the division in which you compete is based on your talent."
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Wouldn't you say the class system has made it so that these smaller schools could build their programs? I say that is proof positive that the class system has worked how it is intended.
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Joe Caprino added to this discussion on February 17, 2010
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Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
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"2 states have one class at their state tourn, NJ & Calif. Each has had only one 4X state champ.
NJ uses 32 man bracket, 24 wrestlers qualify per wt with each of the 8 Regional champs getting a first round bye.
Calif was using a 32 man bracket, but now uses 64 with alot of byes in first round. I think Calif is like Ironman where many wts have more than 32 wrestlers.
yes, Pat, a 32 man bracket at state in Ohio would make sense. (or could even be 64 but would need to start wrestling earlier on Thursday, but so what?)."
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What about Indiana where over the past 11 years 75% of the state qualifiers are from big schools?
If you look at New Jersey, they can pull off having a singlet class system because most of their schools are very close in size. In Ohio that is not the case with many rural areas.
Also Ohio allows 9.07% of their varsity wrestlers to go to state which is the 7th least in the country.
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on February 17, 2010
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Joe, well, thats how u see it-- but i call it watering down the meaning of state placer, we award 336 per year after all. (Yes i forgot Indiana has only one class, too.)
And why should it --in general-- be easier to get to state and place at state in a small school, what justification ????
In Ohio we have about 170 schools per Division. The way IOWA does it makes more sense if you have to have 3 Divisions.
In Iowa the largest schools is Class 3A and it has the smallest number of schools in it. I'll throw out some numbers as an example, not exact but u get the idea. In Iowa the 3A largest school Class has about 60 schools-- the 2A has maybe 90-- the smallest schools Class1A has maybe 120 schools in it. Makes more sense than Ohio, imo, more equitable. s/BobP
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Last edited by Bob Preusse on February 17, 2010; edited 1 time in total
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Dan Cosimi added to this discussion on February 17, 2010
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Quote from Gary Sommers's post:
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"Dan, these days unlike when I was in school most boys wrestle close to 12 months a year."
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Most??? Where are you getting that from? No way, especially not at D3 public schools.
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Quote from Gary Sommers's post:
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"Beachwood is a very small school. Yet Johnny would much more improve working with Dronzek, Harris, and Gross over whoever is at Euclid."
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Dronzek is a senior in high school. Harris and Gross are in middle school. Middle schoolers, by law, are not allowed to join varsity practices. So it's just Dronzek of those three. Let's say Dronzek and Jacober because the latter is very good, too.
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Quote from Gary Sommers's post:
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"We can find specific examples that cut in both directions."
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Sure we can but Kirtland is a program that is (in my opinion) average for D3, whereas Euclid is exceptionally down for D1. Let's compare average to average. Beachwood works just like Kirtland because, like in most years, they have very good lowerweights and they are thin at the upperweights (we are the opposite). If we were bigger, Beachwood and Kirtland would be able to fill out our lineups with a district or state level varsity wrestler at every weight class so that if Johnny Doe was an upperweight at Beachwood or a lowerweight at Kirtland, he would still be pushed in the room. Now you might ask what Johnny Doe as an upperweight has to do with Dronzek winning a state title. Directly, not all that much. Indirectly, a lot. The thing is the D1 schools have Dronzek, Doe and more, whereas the D3 school has just Dronzek (and what if he gets injured?). Winning is contagious within a program. Compare how many state champs come from schools with multiple state champs versus how many come from schools with few. The difference is huge. That's the numbers issue at work.
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Joe Caprino added to this discussion on February 17, 2010
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Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
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"Joe, well, thats how u see it-- but I call it watering down the meaning of state placer, we award 336 per year after all. (Yes I forgot Indiana has only one class, too.)
And why should it --in general-- be easier to get to state and place at state in a small school, what justification ????
In Ohio we have about 170 schools per Division. The way IOWA does it makes more sense if you have to have 3 Divisions.
In Iowa the largest schools is Class 3A and it has the smallest number of schools in it. I'll throw out some numbers as an example, not exact but u get the idea. In Iowa the 3A largest school Class has about 60 schools-- the 2A has maybe 90-- the smallest schools Class1A has maybe 120 schools in it. Makes more sense than Ohio, imo, more equitable. s/BobP"
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Bob,
You also forgot about Texas, Hawaii, Delaware, Kentucky, and Vermont :). I have done a little research on this topic.
The reason to have divisions is to keep the sport alive and healthy at all levels, not just the "haves" of the world. Sure David Taylor, the Steibers, Chris Phillips, etc would do fine in a single class system, but wrestling goes way beyond the elite kids. With 336 state placers it gives more recognition to the kids and opens them up to many opportunities beyond high school. Maybe not Ohio State or Penn State will care about a low DII placer or a DIII kid, but maybe the Findlay, Ashland, Heidelberg, etc coach sees that kid and thinks he might do well in college. If there was a single class system, that kid might not qualify for state or even had gone out for the sport because it would be devalued at a smaller school.
I won't get into the inherit advantages a big school has as I'm sure you know them. The thing that class wrestling has done in Ohio, like Hank said was elevate the programs that wouldn't have had a chance in a single class system.
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on February 17, 2010
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Quote from Dan Cosimi's post:
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"
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Quote from Gary Sommers's post:
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"Dan, these days unlike when I was in school most boys wrestle close to 12 months a year."
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Most??? Where are you getting that from? No way, especially not at D3 public schools.
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Quote from Gary Sommers's post:
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"Beachwood is a very small school. Yet Johnny would much more improve working with Dronzek, Harris, and Gross over whoever is at Euclid."
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Dronzek is a senior in high school. Harris and Gross are in middle school. Middle schoolers, by law, are not allowed to join varsity practices. So it's just Dronzek of those three. Let's say Dronzek and Jacober because the latter is very good, too.
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Quote from Gary Sommers's post:
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"We can find specific examples that cut in both directions."
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Sure we can but Kirtland is a program that is (in my opinion) average for D3, whereas Euclid is exceptionally down for D1. Let's compare average to average. Beachwood works just like Kirtland because, like in most years, they have very good lowerweights and they are thin at the upperweights (we are the opposite). If we were bigger, Beachwood and Kirtland would be able to fill out our lineups with a district or state level varsity wrestler at every weight class so that if Johnny Doe was an upperweight at Beachwood or a lowerweight at Kirtland, he would still be pushed in the room. Now you might ask what Johnny Doe as an upperweight has to do with Dronzek winning a state title. Directly, not all that much. Indirectly, a lot. The thing is the D1 schools have Dronzek, Doe and more, whereas the D3 school has just Dronzek (and what if he gets injured?). Winning is contagious within a program. Compare how many state champs come from schools with multiple state champs versus how many come from schools with few. The difference is huge. That's the numbers issue at work."
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Yes, Dronzak is a senior but so is Young in your earlier example. And yes Jacober is very good as well, but I was just sticking to guys of more similar weight to each other.
Just because a school is larger does not mean they can fill out their lineup with district-caliber wrestlers. Trust me, my son wrestles at a fairly large school and particularly this year that is far from the case.
Are there advantages that come from being at a larger school? Perhaps. But those advantages are certainly not guaranteed. Are there disadvantages at a smaller school? Maybe, but again not all the time. At the end of the day the wrestler walks out on the mat alone, and merely the size of his school often does little to help him.
And then we have the issues of private schools where the size often has little to do with the quality of the athletic program as they often hand-pick athletes from a large geographic area to feed their program. Simply look at Regina's basketball program. CVCA's wrestling program. Beaumont's cross-country program.
Not trying to argue here at all, I just find having divisions in individual sports kind of curious.
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Last edited by Gary Sommers on February 17, 2010; edited 1 time in total
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on February 17, 2010
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"If there was a single class system, that kid might not qualify for state or even had gone out for the sport because it would be devalued at a smaller school."
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i guess we disagree, Joe. ---- And i did recommend a possible 64 man bracket at state in my earlier post, that would get MORE kids to state than today.
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on February 17, 2010
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"With 336 state placers it gives more recognition to the kids and opens them up to many opportunities beyond high school"
But you run the risk of cheapening the value of that recognition. Anytime there is too much of something its value diminishes. A basic economic principle that might apply here as well.
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Joe Caprino added to this discussion on February 17, 2010
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A 64 man bracket would almost be impossible to pull off. Just the first round alone would be awfully long and take a whole day to complete.
32 matches per weight class
x14 weight classes
448 matches
/ 8 mats
56 matches per mat
x 5minutes a piece(generous there)
280 minutes or 4.67 hours
Add to that the second round would be the same exact number of matches. That would mean 9-10 hours to get the first two rounds done.
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