|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: The Importance of Mat Wrestling In College
Rex Holman added to this discussion on January 9, 2010
|
Apparently I am missing this huge glut of 1st period 0-0 stallridden periods. Admittedly, I have only watched the Buckeyes, the Midland Finals, Iowa v UNI, the All Star Meet and some others. I like what I have seen so far. It does not appear to me that our sport is in the crapper due to an increase of stalling by older wrestlers.
Holy heck Batman; A blanket statement that says all 3 minute periods that end 0-0 should be assessed for stalling. What planet am I from to think differently. How about assessing on a case by case basis or just how many wrestlers are going out there with the strategy to stall for 3 minutes, get a point of riding time, get an escape and stall some more, maybe .1%.
Please enlighten me to who is using this strategy. A bunch of older wrestlers is fairly vague as is the quality of seems like.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: The Importance of Mat Wrestling In College
Ken Ramsey Sr. added to this discussion on January 10, 2010
|
|
Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
|
|
"My big bone of contention with college wrestling is riding time. Fred Feeney has admitted on this forum that for the first minute of riding, top man can ride the hips. I hate the stalling call because of its subjectivity. I do agree with you that college refs do a better job with this call than hs officials. College refs don't call stalling as much because they better understand the tactics at work in a match.
Wrestling is a sport of positions--Neutral, Advantage and Disadvantage. When you successfully manuver from one position to another you are awarded points. Neutral to advantage means a TD. Disadvantage to neutral means an escape. Disadvantage to Advantage means a reversal. But in college we allow advantage without change to result in one point. The wrestler in the advantage position should only score when he puts his opponent in a 4th position--Peril."
|
Hank:
Completely agree, just defensively hanging on should never be awarded points. College wrestling would really change for the better if they would get rid of riding time, most of the stalling would stop in both wrestlers.
Rex:
We must be watching different matches, because I still see a lot of stalling in the matches. When you and Kenny wrestled at OSU I can remember both of you complaining guys wouldn't wrestle you and from what I see it hasn't changed.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: The Importance of Mat Wrestling In College
Rex Holman added to this discussion on January 10, 2010
|
Ken-
My perspective has changed since I was in college. Wrestlers must be adept at counter wrestling as well as tactics which limit risk. This is disciplined wrestling that may not represent continuous action but represents control, position and intelligence. The ability to engage in this application is just one more piece of the wrestling puzzle and to dismiss it as unneccessary is to do a grave injustice to someone attempting to realize their potential. Having a coach that espouses this view as well is leaving his wrestler unprepared for an extremely important facet to this sport. While I do believe that an offensive oriented attack is best. There are times in which the opponent, situation or position requires that you engage in chiefly counter attacks.
One man's stalling is another man's style and after further inspection, you just have to figure out a way to make it work.
Neutral position from the feet is difficult. A break in position typically does not occur until later in the match due to fatigue manifested as slower response in your opponent. You can hasten this process by an increase in pace, but you are likely to get out of position in doing so. A three minute period which involves active handfighting, some shots and counterattacks with no scoring is alright by me. The more game opponent's position will not be compromised and to overly commit while they are in good position will likely end up bad.
There is some bad wrestling out there but I don't attribute to stalling. I attribute it to lack of: skillsets, discipline or intelligence.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: The Importance of Mat Wrestling In College
Lou Demas added to this discussion on January 11, 2010
|
I think Rex and Ken Sr. both are right .I believe this because I think the Bigger Question is what better for the sport or which direction you want the sport of wresting to go in.
Rex has a point,when you have to very skilled wrestlers, they can go scoreless being very strategic in a risk to reward wrestling match and they may not be stalling per se'.
Ken Sr. right when he says, an older may stall and wait for a less experienced but possible a better wrestler to make a mistake because he rushed the to score and risked to much. Seems to me Ken Sr. wants Refs more involved to push action.
Now here come the million dollar question which direction do we want the sport of wrestling to go in.
1. Do we want a sport with less scoring and maybe less controversy that not many spectators will understand all the little nuances and strategy involved.
2.Do we want a sport that rewards the risk taker yet possible penalizes the more strategic wrestler and at the same time opening up matches to controversy by maybe giving to much control to Ref to dictate pace of match. However this would be more spectator friendly.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: The Importance of Mat Wrestling In College
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on January 11, 2010
|
I figured that sooner or later I would have to weigh in on this issue. I come at it from the standpoint of an official and all I want is for the match to be well wrestled.
Over the years I have had the chance to officiate some really good matches, Lang vs Jaggers and Jaggers vs Zupancic, among them. Both matches were intense but easy to officiate. Why? Because they came ready and willing to wrestle. Additionally, they were willing to take chances. By comparison, I had a couple of state champs in the Mayfield Big 8 a few years ago in a match that had to one of the worst "high profile" matches I ever saw. Why? Because they knew each other too well and they would not take chances.
It is my feeling that a lot of people confuse mat wrestling with good wrestling. Someone who wrestles well on the mat is not a problem because you can see what they are doing, or at least trying to do. OTOH, when someone is leading in the match and riding the hips, what is really going on? How long do you let him "try" to do something? In college it is different because everyone is pretty darned good and knows what they can do plus there is the issue of riding time. In high school, it isn't that clear cut. I would LOVE to never have to make another stalling call. It means the kids are active and it keeps my butt out of the fire. Every time that clenched fist goes up, 50% of the people in attendance think I am a terrible person. On the other hand, doesn't the wrestler being held down deserve the opportunity to score and/or win?
I have long thought that you could get 20 coaches in a room and they couldn't agree on what stalling is either. Everyone of us (coaches and officials) has certain things we see, we look for, and we feel.
Look, I can call it any way the rules are laid out. Eliminate stalling from the rule book and it means one less thing for me to worry about. Will that make for a good match? I doubt it but if that is what the National Federation wants, fine.
One other issue that puzzles me is the idea that we, as officials, have some "obligation" to call matches in order to prepare wrestlers for college. I assume people mean more mat wrestling. The rules are different so our matches are different. Not good or bad, just different.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: The Importance of Mat Wrestling In College
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on January 11, 2010
|
" I have long thought that you could get 20 coaches in a room and they couldn't agree on what stalling is either."
Great comment, Jim. But that's only true when they watch other kids wrestle. When it's their kids wrestling, one rule applies--he's not stalling;)
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: The Importance of Mat Wrestling In College
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on January 12, 2010
|
Great comment, Jim. But that's only true when they watch other kids wrestle. When it's their kids wrestling, one rule applies--he's not stalling;)[/quote]
Actually, that IS the second part of my thought but I was trying to be nice. Thanx for adding it.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: The Importance of Mat Wrestling In College
Rex Holman added to this discussion on January 12, 2010
|
Jim-
Thanks for weighing in.
It is important to note that what we view is relative to a couple of qualities. A willingness to engage in exchange of position, a capacity for those positions and a rate of exchange. I would like to give my view, it is a wrestler's perspective.
A willingness to engage in position runs the gamut from tie ups to scramble situations and a wrestler who initiates the action is essentially willing to engage in a position from where he seeks to continue his attack towards an end. If the other wrestler does not like the position, he has the choice to fight for his position or disengage and try something different. Continuous disengagement and passive attempts at engagement may be construed as stalling.
Capacity to wrestle from situations is unique to the individual and is really where the scoring takes place. Given a situation what is your ability to score from it. Each wrestler has different abilities and it just so happens that the wrestler who puts himself in position of expertise and proficiency more often than his opponent scores more point.
Rate of exchange is the pace at which the exchange is driven, which is dependent upon the initiator of action. There has to be some weight given to this quality because one wrestler is working harder than the other, but this is not an absolute. To say the other wrestler is not doing enough is subjective at best as it may be an inherent style characteristic of that wrestler's form. It might appear as boring but in reality it is intelligent and methodical. IMO, Boring wrestling does not necessarily equate to stalling. It just is what it is and it is. It is not "fun" to watch. As a friend put it, "it is like watching whales hump"
The only way we can get by this issue is something that Lou concluded in his directional analysis. Do we give preferential judgment to the initiator of pace or do we leave it entirely up to the wrestlers.
Personally, I like what we have now, something in the middle, which allows for a little bit of everything,
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: The Importance of Mat Wrestling In College
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on January 12, 2010
|
Rex,
Your points are all well taken. I "hope" that I look at all the angles when I work a match but I suppose that I can miss them. Your writing will make me think about them all, in a more critical way, from this point forward.
I especially liked your line about "boring wrestling does not necessarily equate to stalling. How very true especially in the larger weights. As I gained experience as an official, I started to view those matches much differently than I did at first. Still not a fan but I think I understand it better.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: The Importance of Mat Wrestling In College
Ken Ramsey Sr. added to this discussion on January 12, 2010
|
|
Quote from Rex Holman's post:
|
|
"Ken-
My perspective has changed since I was in college. Wrestlers must be adept at counter wrestling as well as tactics which limit risk. This is disciplined wrestling that may not represent continuous action but represents control, position and intelligence. The ability to engage in this application is just one more piece of the wrestling puzzle and to dismiss it as unneccessary is to do a grave injustice to someone attempting to realize their potential. Having a coach that espouses this view as well is leaving his wrestler unprepared for an extremely important facet to this sport. While I do believe that an offensive oriented attack is best. There are times in which the opponent, situation or position requires that you engage in chiefly counter attacks.
One man's stalling is another man's style and after further inspection, you just have to figure out a way to make it work.
Neutral position from the feet is difficult. A break in position typically does not occur until later in the match due to fatigue manifested as slower response in your opponent. You can hasten this process by an increase in pace, but you are likely to get out of position in doing so. A three minute period which involves active handfighting, some shots and counterattacks with no scoring is alright by me. The more game opponent's position will not be compromised and to overly commit while they are in good position will likely end up bad.
There is some bad wrestling out there but I don't attribute to stalling. I attribute it to lack of: skillsets, discipline or intelligence."
|
I will agree with you that a higher level of positioning is a big part of college wrestling, but more than the positioning is the problem it causes in the opponent's confidence. Thus a highly skilled offensive wrestler becomes defensive and it takes away his best weapon. Against a defensive wrestler you can not make a lazy mistake or you pay for it, but if you shut down, you play into his plan. As a coach I have always tried to keep my offensive wrestlers on the attack, but that is a hard task when they lose their confidence. I think you will remember your Junior year at NCAAs when a teammate shut down against a defensive strategy to lose a spot in the finals 2-1, after having beaten the same wrestler 10-2 a few weeks earlier.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: The Importance of Mat Wrestling In College
Rex Holman added to this discussion on January 13, 2010
|
Ken-
Actually, Kenny's match with Sunderland was one of the first associations I made since I am dialoguing with you. There is quite a bit going on with what happened in Kenny's case. I don't remember it per se but I know enough about it to make quality inferences that provide explanation to the outcome.
At the National duals, Kenny beat Sunderland handily. I think you need to look at that match a little closer. I believe from memory that Kenny scored a 4-5 pt move at the end of the first period off a Sunderland attempt. Sunderland was then forced to take on added risk to which Kenny put the kibosh on and capitalized. Kenny was very good with a lead and had good defensive skills. Anyway, the outcome was onesided, which may lead you to believe that Kenny would have a similar outcome next time around. Not so.
As a result of the match, The PSU coaching staff was forced to assess the situation and give Troy the best advice available for an improved outcome. Here is my make believe dialogue between Coach Lorenzo and Sunderland expressed in my terms
Lorenzo:You can't take a bad shot against a quality opponent and expect to win. Do you want to wrestle in the National Finals?
Sunderland:Yes
Lorenzo:I ask that you only take good shots and if that means limiting your positions of engagement, then so be it. Don't take a bad shot but be active in your attempts and if something presents itself, take it.
Sunderland:Ok, I can do that.
I suspect that there was a lot of standing around in Kenny's semifinal as I remember Coach Jordan commenting on it. This would lead me to believe that there was stalling involved on both wrestlers. Kenny did not typically push people all over the mat but would explode and score points in bunches when he chose to engage. This is problematic as there will be fewer opportunities to score and fatigue will not be a factor in the match. Hence, the better wrestlers will maintain position longer. If there is no loss of position, no scoring. It will be left up to the officials or some overtime criteria. With the score being 2-1, I am wondering what Sunderland's points were. 1 pt escape and 1 pt riding (the hips?) time
Now, you may say that limiting your engagement is stalling, however, I don't believe it to be as long as you are engaging to improve position and work towards the td. This is a concept that was foreign to me in my college years. There was one modality and that was to attack. But that leaves a huge gap of wrestling of which is not developed.
As far as confidence goes, it is a function of the position of engagement and to the degree which you are comfortable and proficient. If you are unable to engage those positions, your confidence will likely be impacted or said another way, when you are looking for an explanation to an outcome, you are likely to manufacture the lack of confidence as the reason for your inability.
It is unfortunate that match went the way it did. But with a couple of adjustments and different training emphasis, Kenny would have won as Troy wrestled his best and smartest match to beat Kenny.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: The Importance of Mat Wrestling In College
Zebulin Miller added to this discussion on January 13, 2010
|
It's like Rex was at the conversation between Lorenzo and Sunderland! That was awesome and so true Rex, some guys wrestle to keep things close and are good enough to win, that is all guys do against someone in my family and it is pretty effective!
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: The Importance of Mat Wrestling In College
Rex Holman added to this discussion on January 13, 2010
|
Zeb-
Ian needs to learn tactics which expose his opponents to more attacks and make obvious his opponent's relatively passive attempts to engage.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: The Importance of Mat Wrestling In College
Zebulin Miller added to this discussion on January 13, 2010
|
We will talk soon Rex, thanks!
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: The Importance of Mat Wrestling In College
Lou Demas added to this discussion on January 13, 2010
|
Here' s my two cents on the mat wrestling. I feel it is just like every other position in wrestling, every wrestler must known how to wrestle from every position. I treat mat wrestling just like neutral wrestling, How do I maintain good position relative to that of my opponents movement and stance. In mat wrestling wrestlers must learn to do the same by first and foremost learning how to ride and maintain good top position, then a wrestler must either set up is pinning combinations or turn opponent relative to position takes trying to escape or reverse. A wrestler should also know the weakness of how he rides a opponent and turns opponent, that if opponent escape's he is aware where his opponent will have to go and at best case scenario this sets up a take down or stifles a re-attack. This is the same as wrestling on feet, a wrestler maintains position, sets up attack or attacks opponent relative to his position and a wrestler knows how opponent defends his particular attacks thereby setting up secondary attack or at minimum stifling re-attack. It's also a best if a wrestler can get his opponent to use more energy in process.
A good mat wrestler also has some tactical advantages over his opponent. If a wrestler is great on his feet he can risk more knowing if he can escape at will, however if his opponent is a great mat wrestler this advantage is gone.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
