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Discussion Topic: Buckeye Thoughts
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on December 6, 2009
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There are a handful of collegiate wrestling programs that seem to do a really good job of coaching up their talent. Central Michigan is one. Iowa is another. Cornell would be a third that comes to mind. I think Kent also has to be viewed as a program that does a very good job of getting the most out of what they have.
What about Ohio State?
Here's what I see. The studs are studs. In other words, the handful of guys that come in and show that they are impact wrestlers from the start do a very nice job. Jaggers was good from the moment he first competed (and yes he got better). So was Bergman. Same for Pucillo. Lance Palmer, ditto. Humphrey was successful as a true frosh although there's been obvious improvement since that time. Sponseller was very good as a true frosh. But, overall, the guys that show themselves as AA candidates from the moment they arrive seem to carry this program.
On the other hand, the second tier guys don't seem to be developing into potential AA candidates. Some guys are always going to wash out for whatever reasons. But what I'm failing to see in Tom Ryan's 4th season (and, yes, it's early) is better progress from the guys that aren't instantly/obviously very good.
let's view the last 3 national tourneys.
2007 AA's--Jaggers, Pucillo, Palmer, Bergman
2008 AA's--Jaggers, Pucillo, Palmer, Bergman
2009 AA's--Jaggers, Pucillo, Palmer, Humphrey
That's five wrestlers placing top 8...and no one else.
Look who else is on this roster: Rella (HS national champ), Triggas (HS high AA in multiple styles), Sponseller (HS national champ), Hiles (HS AA), Jameson (4x champ), Harrington (2x champ), Touris (HS AA), Kusar (HS AA), C. Palmer (4x champ), Paddock (3x champ), Capone (1x champ), Magrum (3x champ), Heflin (2x finalist, HS AA), Touris (HS AA). And I'm sure I'm failing to mention some current squad members that should also be named. Among the current starters, only Morrison did nothing spectacular in high school.
How can a roster with so many credentialed wrestlers not have more guys ready to become AA's?
My feeling is that the Ohio State coaching staff needs to spend some time working on their strategies of talent development. What are certain programs doing better than they are? Where can they make positive changes? Is it an issue of training? Tactics? Both? Also, the Buckeye staff has tried to recruit several major stars over the last few years and failed to land them. At the same time, some great Ohio talent has ended up elsewhere. Is this a bad strategy? Would it make more sense to focus on the best in-state kids and do a better job of developing them once they arrive in Columbus?
I recognize that Tom Ryan has done a good job since taking over the program. He's organized, motivated and relentless in his pursuit of excellence. Recruitment is consistently better as is overall performance than at any time in program history. But...talent development is not what it ought to be. At least I don't think so. There's something to learn from a handful of national programs that could prove to be the ingredient needed for Ohio State to win a national title. Or so I think.
Other thoughts?
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Discussion Topic: Buckeye Thoughts
Brian Morrow added to this discussion on December 6, 2009
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I just don't understand why some of these guys are not getting a chance. I don't think we have the best 10 on the mat thats all I have to say. I can think of a couple of wt classes I would atleast like to see other guys get a chance. If they don't pan out then go back to plan A.
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Discussion Topic: Buckeye Thoughts
Ben Golden added to this discussion on December 6, 2009
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Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
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"
Look who else is on this roster: Rella (HS national champ), Triggas (HS high AA in multiple styles), Sponseller (HS national champ), Hiles (HS AA), Jameson (4x champ), Harrington (2x champ), Touris (HS AA), Kusar (HS AA), C. Palmer (4x champ), Paddock (3x champ), Capone (1x champ), Magrum (3x champ), Heflin (2x finalist, HS AA), Touris (HS AA). And I'm sure I'm failing to mention some current squad members that should also be named. Among the current starters, only Morrison did nothing spectacular in high school.
How can a roster with so many credentialed wrestlers not have more guys ready to become AA's?
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I'm not going to agree or disagree with your overall comment right now, but I think this section is silly. You have a point with Rella and Triggas, but not really anyone else. Sponseller improved a tremendous amount from his frosh to soph year. Everyone else on this list is a freshman and some are redshirting. How can you judge their development 1 month into their college careers?
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Discussion Topic: Buckeye Thoughts
John Taylor added to this discussion on December 6, 2009
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I notice alot of the redshirts and back ups are not competeing in opens every weekend. Why is this? Have Heflin and Collin Palmer even wrestled yet this year? The only way to improve is to compete, I really don't think we see enough of the back ups and red shirts in tournaments. Why is this? If they want to improve thet need to get out and wrestle. They should be chomping at the bit to find tournaments to go to every weekend.
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Discussion Topic: Buckeye Thoughts
Christopher Henderson added to this discussion on December 6, 2009
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I don't know if Tom Ryan isn't developing talent, but the team really looks flat so far this season. Coach said that the quarter system at tOSU made it so that his team couldn't start practice until recently, but I thought that tOSU was always on the quarter system.
To go through the line up here's what we can see so far:
125 Triggas looks a little be a little better than last year. I like that he always tries to pin. He still doesn't seem close to an AA.
133 Paddock reminds me of the Humphrey's first season. He's not ready for DI wrestling and he's cutting a lot of weight. He's very talented, but by the end of the season, he'll be too burnt out from the cut and the extra long college season.
141 I wish there were a 138 lbs. weight class because Reece seems a little slow at this weight. He just doesn't seem as explosive or dominating as last year. He got a lucky two-count to win in the finals yesterday.
149 Palmer is really regressing. Hopefully, it's just a knee injury that will heal soon. His defense is still good, but his riding isn't what it used to be. And his shots still aren't there. I'm sure he tries them during practice, but it looks like he is content to play defense for six minutes and then try one shot at the end or vice versa. This could be his weekest year.
157 Nemec looks okay, but I wonder if he is cutting too much. He was 160 three years ago. I wish Jameson would beat him out so that we could watch some entertaining wrestling. Win or lose, 12-10 matches are fun to watch and they are good for the sport. Who would have thought that Dong would be so much better than Nemec right now?
165 What happened to Sponseller? Where is his motor? He got bear-hugged twice in one match when he lost to King, and if you watch his match against Howe, he runs out of gas and takes a sloppy shot to get taken down at the end. I never thought I would see Colt get out conditioned in a match. Ever. Maybe he's cutting too much.
174 Rella looks better than last year. He's been able to keep it close with some really good wrestlers and I was encouraged by his victory over Keddy. With some good luck he could AA this year. Remember as a senior when he and Lewnes has some really good battles? Now it wouldn't even be close.
184 Everyone knows how badly Pucillo is doing.
197 Magrum is being very competitive with some excellent wrestlers. I don't know if he is more of a 184, however. I think by next season, he will be stronger and bigger and will be a definite national qualifier.
285 CoMo is wrestling better than ever. It still won't get him an AA but he could certainly win a few matches at the national tournament.
Even though tOSU isn't wrestling well early in the season, I try to remember the 2003-2004 season when the Buckeyes took 8th at the Big Eleven tournament then took 3rd two weeks later that the national tournament. It's a long season and anything can happen.
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Discussion Topic: Buckeye Thoughts
John Ice added to this discussion on December 6, 2009
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Even though tOSU isn't wrestling well early in the season, I try to remember the 2003-2004 season when the Buckeyes took 8th at the Big Eleven tournament then took 3rd two weeks later that the national tournament. It's a long season and anything can happen
I thought they were the champions at Las Vegas?
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Discussion Topic: Buckeye Thoughts
Christopher Henderson added to this discussion on December 6, 2009
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John, isn't it amazing how high our standards for the Buckeyes have become? I guess finishing second two years in a row will do that. Now we want the whole enchillada.
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Discussion Topic: Buckeye Thoughts
Zebulin Miller added to this discussion on December 6, 2009
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You may have never wrestled in college, Paddock is not cutting weight, Pucillo is in a minor slump and they (Buckeye Team) just won Cliff Keen Las Vegas invite, let's be a little more positive. Howe is a total monster, Colt is right there with him and Palmer will make a run at it this year, to say a 3X AA has regressed is pretty funny. I would love to hear what Rex Holman thinks.
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Discussion Topic: Buckeye Thoughts
Jack Muni added to this discussion on December 6, 2009
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I thought Howe had a nice double leg in 1st period, but it was pretty even after that, with Colt taking a late desperation shot & giving up a TD at the end.Colt has to figure out how to penetrate that neck tie-up of Howe's; on their feet the whole match seemed to be in the tie-up position, with Colt trying to get the underhooks or arm drags which Howe kept blocking. And Palmer's stall call was questionable; again another one-point close match. Lance has to get out of Ruschell's half/deep waist ride sooner. Listening to Ryan's post-tournament interview, he seemed to know why Mike was struggling. He mentioned weight management and sounded like he wasn't in great shape yet, which would account for his later matches being losses. We all know what Mike can do come March, if he's healthy and in shape.
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Discussion Topic: Buckeye Thoughts
Greg Debbe added to this discussion on December 6, 2009
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I think there is room for improvement but I think some people just have unreasonble expectations. There is only so much you can do with the number of scholarships you are allowed to hand out.
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Discussion Topic: Buckeye Thoughts
Christopher Henderson added to this discussion on December 6, 2009
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Zeb, you are right. Saying Palmer is regressing is too harsh. I think plateaued or peaked would have been the proper word to use. When I watch matches I forget that between every tournament the wrestlers are practicing and constantly trying to improve. I should give credit to Lance's opponents who are getting better and can now beat him.
As a comparison, it's not like Metcalf got worse last year. Caldwell turned it up about four notches and became a world-beater. Things never stay the same. That's why they keep going out on the mat to see who's better that day.
I was also too hard on Colt. Andrew Howe is a special talent and is probably just the superior wrestler. Hopefully, Howe decides to go 174 next year or redshirt to give Sponseller a chance at the title.
Also, Zeb, keep up the great work at Flo. I love the coverage and good luck on the Flonational Tournament. It could be the greatest thing in high school wrestling since the invention of the headgear.
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Discussion Topic: Buckeye Thoughts
Mike Hojnacki added to this discussion on December 6, 2009
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Sure, the Bucks didn't have their greatest weekend. They usually don't until March...
At this point, I think it is invaluable to have Jaggers still in the room. The guys get to wrestle alongside their coach who was in this very predicament last year. He can be a living, breathing reminder that they can accomplish their goals, even if the road takes some unexpected turns.
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Discussion Topic: Buckeye Thoughts
Scott Nicola added to this discussion on December 7, 2009
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I agree many of the comments are pretty harsh and in some cases downright wrong. The Bucks just won a supertough college tourney with numerous top ten teams. Heres what I have seen.
125-Triggas has had some losses early (including one to Harrington). Big wbf in the Lehigh dual against McDonald. Weight likely part of the issue. Triggas' placement at Vegas is promising. Harrington looks to be an option should Triggas falter.
133-I think Paddock has done a solid job for a true freshman at this weight. Has wrestled some top guys tough and has also been pushed around by a couple studs.
141-I'm not sure how anyone can find fault with Hump's year so far. He is undefeated and just won a tounament with numerous AA's and future superstar Dake. Those "lucky" nearfall points were off a beautiful rolling half. Cael Sanderson used to get lucky alot with that move in college.
149-Palmer regressed? He has one loss this year to the guy who took 3rd at NCAA last year (who he goes back and forth with). I would love to "plateau" at the AA level.
157-Nemec is tough but has probably not progressed as some had thought. Jameson has had mixed results. He has shown flashes of what makes him great but has also had some lapses. I would say Nemec is the beter wrestler right now but Jameson but progress.
165-Again, it's hard to find alot fault in Colts wrestling this year. He has lost to the returning NCAA champ and runner-up in competitive matches and destroyed everyone else. His conditioning is fine.
174-I think Rella has wrestled well this year but I wish he would be more offensive. He seems to wait until the end of the peiod to initiate leg attacks. Lost to Zeerip who Capone beat twice but beat the Findlay kid who beat up on Capone. I do think Capone is a diamond in the rough and will be a future contributor at 174/184.
184-Whatever is happening with Pucillo I'm confident they will sort out by March. Interesting if it is the weight b/c it seems he kept his weight down more this offseason than in previous years.
197-It seems like Magrum has competed well and improved every week. I questioned wheather he would be a "full sized" 197 but he seems to have handled the weight fine.
285-Morrison has been good but somewhat inconsistent. Seems to have trouble with guys who are good on top. Competes hard.
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Discussion Topic: Buckeye Thoughts
John Robert Dula added to this discussion on December 7, 2009
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Wrestler Seeded Place
Triggas 8 8
Paddock not none
Humphrey 1 1
Palmer 2 2
Nemec not none
Sponseller 3 2
Rella 10 7
Pucillo 1 4
Magrum not none
Morrison 9 none
Team projection bases on seeds
Ohio State 89
Oklahoma 88.5
Cornell 88
Team finish
Ohio State by 1 point over Cornell
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Discussion Topic: Buckeye Thoughts
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on December 7, 2009
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Scott: I agree with everything you just said but that's not my point (which is different than what others are discussing). My contention is that the Bucks have had five wrestlers carrying this team over the last three seasons. When this season ends, the era of top ten finishes will be in jeopardy. Palmer, Pucillo, and Hump will not be replaced next season. Only Sponseller will be left as an obvious AA caliber competitor. Why aren't more guys developing?
Example: Ian Paddock is in the lineup but should he be? Why not slide up Triggas to 133 and start Harrington or Touris (or both). Those two have been in the room a few years. They were studs in high school. Yet the staff decided a true frosh was the better option. I don't think that was a smart decision from the standpoint of developing Paddock--who's not likely to AA--as well as using the guys in your room. At some point you have to let some other guys compete for the sake of better developing your own talent. I look at Sponseller, Rella and Triggas and wonder how much better they might have been if given a chance to redshirt. In some instances, a coach has no choice but to start a true frosh. But there were options besides Paddock if you believe in the guys in your room.
I don't see this staff showing the necessary faith in some of their roster. The question is--why?
As to winning Vegas--well, they should have. Yet Cornell, without Nickerson, and a few other starters, was one point behind. Cornell's backup at 125 was taking second. They got scoring from a number of backups. They strike me as a more well prepared squad. Agree? Disagree?
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