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Discussion Topic: Big News for Buckeye Fans
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on October 11, 2009
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"A few names to consider: Mark Zimmer, Dane Tussel, both Jim and Jeff Jordan, Don Horning, Erik Burnett, Dan Hanson, Alan Fried, Shawn Nelson, Tim Dernlan, Kyle Ott, Ryan Lang, Joe Pflug, David Taylor and Logan Stieber."
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MikeR,
great names but i was going strictly on who wrested NO HIGHER than 105 his SENIOR year, the same rules we had for the Luke vs McGhee debate which was 160 senior year.
To be consistent-- i mentioned Tomazz Wilson who wr 103 his jr and sr year, McFarland wr 98 his jr and 105 his senior year. These other greats u named wrestled higher wts by the time they were (juniors &) seniors.
what are rules Bill Splete since u came up with the basic idea ???? i am in favor of senior year wt being used, to be consistent.
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Discussion Topic: Big News for Buckeye Fans
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on October 11, 2009
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Ben...C.P. burst on the scene (at least to me) when he won Medina as an unseeded 119-pound freshman over eventual 3X state champ Mason Lenhard. Dustin dominanted Ironman (and everyting else) as a 112-pound freshman. I think both will be in any conversation about those weights and the others they competed in, but neither wrestled at the indroductory weight.
Bob...I was just going on who I thought was the best at that weight, what year they were when they competed doesn't seem relevant to me. If Chris Phillps was the best 171-pounder ever as a freshman, then I think he should get the nod. The only reason McGhee and Luke were compared as seniors is becuase that was the year both were 160-pounders. They were also compared to Mollica as a junior. To me, if you limit it to weight as a senior, then you don't get the best guy at the best weight. Take Mark Moos for example. He would probably be in the conversation at 112 for his spetacular undefeated season his junior year, but I'm not sure he makes the top five at 119, his senior season when he lost three times.
Also, limiting to seniors drastically reduces the talent level in the lighter weights. As great as Tomazz Wilson was, a sophomore David Taylor or a freshman Logan Stieber is porbably significantly better. It's the same reason Cadets under 112 is a tougher tourney than Juniors.
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Discussion Topic: Big News for Buckeye Fans
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on October 11, 2009
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i get your point MikeR, either is ok by me, let Bill Splete decide, he came up with the idea.
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Discussion Topic: Big News for Buckeye Fans
Scott Nicola added to this discussion on October 11, 2009
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Quote from Ben Golden's post:
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"
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Quote from Michael Rodriguez's post:
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"As far as the best wrestler at the introductory weight, I don't know. There's no doubt that many of the all time greats got their start doing damage at the introductory weight. A few names to consider: Mark Zimmer, Dane Tussel, both Jim and Jeff Jordan, Don Horning, Erik Burnett, Dan Hanson, Alan Fried, Shawn Nelson, Tim Dernlan, Kyle Ott, Ryan Lang, Joe Pflug, David Taylor and Logan Stieber.
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Would you put the Schlatters on this list?"
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Niether started as a 103.
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Discussion Topic: Big News for Buckeye Fans
Bill Splete added to this discussion on October 11, 2009
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Guys, I feel a little pressure. and it feels good. I think if we go with just senior year then I believe we do leave to many guys not at the table. So how about this. If you wrestled in the weight your talent level and performance may be considered. For instance if you wrestled there as a freshman, but were not the best until maybe 3 years later when you wrestled 140 and became dominant that is when you will be considered. I think the forum has the experience and knowledge to hash out who was the best at each weight with no regard to age. In fact we may find ourselves thinking Alan is number one at more than one weight, it's possible. remeber this is the best at each weight class not the overall best of all the weight classes. This is the best forum because it is open and the people on it believe in what they write. I would hate to restrict anyone from consideration. If you believe they are the best. then give them a nod. This forum will support you with evidence or disagree with the same counter evidence.
I really will count on the elders to clarify and educate, this will be a good exercise for others to read. there going to hear names from there past and some they have never heard of and why they are great. I learned alot during the last go around and that is why I want to hear more from you guys. When this is through in the next couple months. Then you can tackle the best ever.
I love the history of the sport and this is how it is passed, making a record, hearing the stories we don't get in the video's.
I will take Joe McFarland, taught me much of what I show today. he really is a master tech. I belived what he said, and it still makes sense today. Probably the best wrestler never to be NCAA champ.
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Discussion Topic: Big News for Buckeye Fans
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on October 11, 2009
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Have to consider a guys ability the exact year he wrestled that particular wt. So at 112 could be a freshman Dustin Schlatter, at 160 a junior Marcus Mollica, at 103 a freshman David Taylor. These are examples.
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Last edited by Bob Preusse on October 11, 2009; edited 2 times in total
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Discussion Topic: Big News for Buckeye Fans
Jason Johnstone added to this discussion on October 11, 2009
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Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
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"Jason: Since you were kind enough to post, I'd love to take the opportunity to ask you a few questions. If you choose not to address them, I'll understand.
1) Who was the toughest opponent you faced? I saw you wrestle guys like Gillespie, Poeta and C.P.. Was it one of them? Or someone else?
2) You spent your last two seasons at 157 pounds. Was that a weight at which you were comfortable? Would you have preferred to drop?
3) Outside of your Buckeye teammates, who do you think has been the best college wrestler in the nation over the last several years? Is there one person you can single out? Or are there several guys?
4) How does a college wrestler feel when a coach is recruiting other wrestlers around his weight class? Does it vary alot by individual? Or do most guys have the mindset that it's out of their hands and they don't worry about it?"
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Hank-
1. I wrestled a lot of tough guys. Guys like Poeta and C.P. are 2 of the better ones. Gregor was really tough, but I matched up well with him so it was never a completely lopsided match even though I never beat him. Out of all the guys I wrestled against though I'd have to say Jordan Leen was by far the toughest to compete against. We wrestled at 141 lbs when we were freshman and it was a battle...I won something like 6-4, but it was a brawl. Then this year we wrestled at national duals and it was a completely different story. The guy is relentless, dirty, and skilled all at the same time. He used everything he could when he wrestled..Not many tougher than him.
2.I wrestled 157 for my final three seasons. 41 as a true freshman, 49 when i redshirted. I was comfortable at 157, I had to make myself feel comfortable or I wouldn't have walked out on the mat. It was the best place for me to be for the team to have the most success, so that's where I went. Dropping to 49 might have been better for me, but I don't think anyone is complaining about Lance being there haha. I know I'm not with 2 NCAA team trophies sitting on top of my TV.
3.It's hard to pick out the best wrestler over the past few years. I've always thought of Mikey as one of the best and he got beat by Herbert, so i'll have to say Jake Herbert is the best out of everyone. Before Herbert i'd have to say Ben Askren. J wasn't too shabby either.
4.It just depends on the person. It drove me to work harder and earn my spot. Too many people feel like they deserve something. Nothing in life comes free, you have to work harder than the other guy in order to be successful. Some people luck out, but in the long run, the harder someone works, the more successful they will be. I can see how someone might feel be-trayed by a coach who is recruiting someone else for their weight class, but that's all part of the business.
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Discussion Topic: Big News for Buckeye Fans
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on October 11, 2009
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good stuff JJ, now i want to ask u about your win over Dustin Schlatter at the Ironman, in semis, a thrill i am sure, 3-2 i think, Dustins first hs loss.
u know when i seeded the wt i could see it coming. Dustin was the 1 seed, u were the 4, there it was right in front of me. I guessed he didnt like it when he saw the seeding, given that u had wrestled him so often in scrimmages.
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Discussion Topic: Big News for Buckeye Fans
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on October 11, 2009
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Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
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"98-103 would be a combo weight class."
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Understood, but then where does 105 go? With 112? Then where does 112 go? I am all for this, but the matching up of eras gets tricky. But if we can give it a shot that works for me.
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Discussion Topic: Big News for Buckeye Fans
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on October 11, 2009
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Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
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"I recommend 98-103-105 combined all together. Problem is the way wt classes have changed over the years we have to combine several to have a legit discussion.
with that in mind here's 2 great candidates for the top spot: JOE McFARLAND of N Olmsted, 98 lb champ in 1979 and 105 lb champ in 1980. 2X NCAA runnerup, also World freestyle silver medalist.
or this guy was maybe the best, 103 in both 1994 & 95, TOMAZZ WILSON from Toledo pinned Brent Thomspon of Walsh Jesuit in 94 and won a classic over Shawn Smith of Massillon Perry, 14-12, in 1995. I think Smith went on to either win or take 2nd at NHSCA Sr nationals."
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My question would be are we looking for the top high schoolers, in which post-high school probably shouldn't be part of the equation. Just asking.
Much like some say Tim Tebow might be the best college football player ever. Not my choice, but some are saying that. Yet most don't think he will be a particularly good pro. So where should the line be drawn?
If we are talking strictly high school, Ron Angelo from Garfield Heights would have to be highly considered. Won at 103 as a junior and 98 as a senior (weight classes changed, between those seasons), both years with only one division. If it is just guys who ever wrestled at the lightest weight, easy choice is Tom Milkovich.
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Discussion Topic: Big News for Buckeye Fans
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on October 11, 2009
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"My question would be are we looking for the top high schoolers, in which post-high school probably shouldn't be part of the equation. Just asking."
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yes i agree, we are only evaluating high school career, which could include fargo results, etc. ----But i thought i'd menton Joe McFarlands post-hs achievements, just as a matter of interest and as verification that he was an elite wrestler.
98-103-105 have to be lumped together, imo, for discussion purposes. A great 105, i have to believe he could have competed at 103 had that weight class been in effect in his era.
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Discussion Topic: Big News for Buckeye Fans
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on October 11, 2009
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Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
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""My question would be are we looking for the top high schoolers, in which post-high school probably shouldn't be part of the equation. Just asking."
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yes I agree, we are only evaluating high school career, which could include fargo results, etc. ----But I thought I'd menton Joe McFarlands post-hs achievements, just as a matter of interest and as verification that he was an elite wrestler.
98-103-105 have to be lumped together, imo, for discussion purposes. A great 105, I have to believe he could have competed at 103 had that weight class been in effect in his era."
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No doubt a great 105 back in the day would have cut to 103 instead of bumping up to 112.
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Discussion Topic: Big News for Buckeye Fans
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on October 11, 2009
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JJ--Thanks for your responses. I watched the Illinois match last season. Poeta was just brutal. I really admired how hard he competed and his skill on his feet. Certainly one of the best guys not to win an NCAA title IMO.
I'd be curious as to your opinion of Brent Metcalf.
Back to the 98-103-105 discussion...
I don't think we should discuss guys who were frosh/sophs at a weight class. Otherwise, we could bring up every wt at which C.P., Dustin, D.Taylor, A. Fried competed (plus other legends like McGhee and Lester) and argue they were the best guy. I think we want to strictly discuss upperclassmen at a wt or it's an impossible task.
Incidentally, no one has yet brought up one great 103 pounder that won two state titles. I never saw a truer bad -ss at the weight class.
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Discussion Topic: Big News for Buckeye Fans
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on October 11, 2009
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Hank...While i agree that using upper classmen only would make the selection process easier, it would also rule out several wrestlers who had thier best seasons early in their careers.
I think much of this is going to come down to who you actually got to see wrestle and what your individual tastes are. Since we are just talking high school, there's no way to prove it. So we're talking who you thought had the most talent, the best skills, beat the best competition, even who had the style that you liked best.
If we do end up considering only seniors, then i like to throw Mike Elsass' name into the ring at 98-103-105. Elsass was a senior 105-pounder from North Canton Hoover High school coached by the great Walt Tolarchyk. He is perhaps best known for his performance his junior year, being the guy who kept Alan Fried from being a 4X state champion, upsetting the freshman Fried in the semis, 8-6. He then stubbled in the finals against a wrestler he had beaten several times before and lost in OT. The next year he went undefeated and unchallenged destroying the excellent Jason Laflin in the final.
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Discussion Topic: Big News for Buckeye Fans
Bill Splete added to this discussion on October 11, 2009
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Sounds like the old dogs have spoken, and we are not going to include fresh or sophs in our list, fair enough. Juniors and seniors only to be considered on the list at a paticular weight class. That's why your hear.
From what I have heard Joe was a small 105 and probably could have made 98 his senior year, is that true. Was he a junior when tussell was a senior? Mr. Coghil told me his two greatest wrestlers that he ever coached Dane Tussell and J. Jaggers. With both of those guys probably being at the top of there weight classes, we shall see.
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