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Discussion Topic: Big News for Buckeye Fans
Bill Splete added to this discussion on October 9, 2009
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Thanks Hank
You guys are like history books. In fact I would like all you guys to get together in a room and hash out top tens in each weight class. Or even better, write a book on ohio wrestling. Give all your stories, as well as bob, dan, mike and the rest of the gang. Could you imagine the stories. I would read that. We could have Rex edit it.
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Discussion Topic: Big News for Buckeye Fans
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on October 9, 2009
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Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
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"Bill:
Think of McGhee as the polar opposite of Dustin Schlatter. Dustin was the ultimate technician who'd use pressure and movement to create openings that he'd exploit to perfection. McGhee was the ultimate scrambler/gambler. Key to his game was that he had incredible hips. He'd let you shoot and toy with you while you held his leg. He could shoot and finish almost at will. And if you made the mistake of getting caught upper body with him your only hope was to land softly. Bottom line: He was impossible to score on by his senior season. And he was dangerous in all positions.
Tony Jameson at his best was reminiscent of McGhee.
I heard McGhee had a learning disability although I'm not sure if it was fact or fiction. He ended up picking Cleve. State in what was arguably the last fleeting moment of glory in the career of Coach Bonacci. But I don't think he ever actually competed after high school. I do remember that the PD put McGhee choosing CSU on the front page of the sports section and that has not happened before or since."
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Hank, I certainly never saw his records but from everything I heard from a few different area coaches back then it seemed to be fact. I believe at one point he was at a JUCO in Iowa but not sure if he ever actually competed there.
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Discussion Topic: Big News for Buckeye Fans
Rex Holman added to this discussion on October 9, 2009
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Bill-
I watched the end. It looked like two and smelled like two, sounded like two but the clock was not visible. I would have had a hard time with that one, too.
I would like to see the Marty Collins v Jay Landolfo State finals match as I ran into Marty at an OSU dual and he talked about how he had a score on a peterson and it was not scored properly.
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Discussion Topic: Big News for Buckeye Fans
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on October 9, 2009
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but speaking of undefeated seasons has anyone had a better one than Mike Buddie? If I recall correctly his senior year NONE of his matches went 6 minutes, including sectional, district, and state finals matches with a very good Vinnie Curiale. And this was a guy who was a very good WR, and became a professional pitcher.
Is my memory serving me correctly on this one?
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Discussion Topic: Big News for Buckeye Fans
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on October 9, 2009
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I really want to be clear here, we're talking about levels of greatness. Anything I say negitive about John McGhee is in the context that he's one of the All Time greats (at any weight, not just 160). I agree with much of what has been said about McGhee. However, some of the things that are being hailed as great positives I look at as more of negitives, particularly Bob's story of the Senior National final...
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Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
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"....at NHSCA senior nationals, he fell behind Otto Olson-- later for a time ranked # 1 at U of Michgan-- Johnny FELL BEHIND like 9 or 10 to 1, but to Johnny it never rattled him, he was a point scoring machine. No Deficit Mattered, can u say that about any other wrestler ??? "
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While I can't think off hand of a wrestler that I could say that about (maybe a few pinners from back in the day), what stands out to me is that someone scored NINE or TEN points on McGhee at the end of his senior season. I bet Steve Luke didn't have ten (offensive) points scored on him all year as a senior. Position and defense is part of the sport. And while fans love to see high scores, the people on this website know enough about the sport to appreciate a good "pitcher's duel". Luke was great in all phases of the sport...including defense.
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Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
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"...no one could ride Johnny McGhee, that was perhaps his best position."
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At best this would have to be a push. Steve Luke's stand-up was the best in the national for the last three years and was just as unstoppable while in high school.
When in comes down to his dominance, all of McGhee's state titles went the distance...three of which were decisions, 16-13, 9-7 and 5-3 (22-11 as a senior). The three undefeated seasons is impressive, but then you get into comparing schedules, and I think Luke wins that battle was well with both Beast of the East and Ironman on the schedule. Also, the four titles from 135-160 is impressive. It was done in DII (compared to Luke's DI) and it was done with (IMO) only Pat Knaze as a significant obstacle over the four years. While Luke was a 112-pound freshman, he had a junior Mark Moos to deal with. At that time, Moos was #1 nationally and better then anyone McGhee ever faced in a final. As a135-pound sophomore Luke beat returning runner-up Vondruska. Again, in my opinion a better opponent then any of McGhee's finals.
Obviously it's a matter of opinion, and to some extent taste. I think it was Hank that mentioned Jameson, camparing him to McGhee. I agree with that assesment. Just like I like Toal a lot more Jameson, I like Luke a lot more then McGhee.
Bill...You mentioned Marty Collins and then Joe and Robert Taylor. That 152-pound bracket was the one of the best I have ever seen. I assume you wrestled all the heavy hitters from that group? They seemed so different in their styles. Collins, the bruiser. Taylor, the athlete. Schetter, the technician. Splete, the prodigy. And Corso who gets forgotten, but won the title the next year over your teammate. BTW, that finals match between Taylor and Collins should be online soon.
Rex...I think I may have Collins/Landolfo too. I see what I can do.
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Discussion Topic: Big News for Buckeye Fans
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on October 9, 2009
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MikeR,
well i guess we agree to disagree. ----Yes i agree Luke was great and he proved it in college.
however i see Steve Luke only won 1 Ironman title. And until he got choice and chose down in OT vs Jared King from Connelsville PA at NHSCA, King had beaten him at least 3 straight.
here is what Brakeman said about McGhee when he selected Johnny as one of his "15 Greatest Ever in Ohio" in year 2000:
"Over the years i've seen tens of thousands of wrestlers, but no one was more outstanding to watch than McGhee. He was the only 4Xer to win all his titles at the middlewts or above."
so while u may be correct and u make good points, there is room to dispute your position as Luke the greatest Ohio 160 ever.
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Discussion Topic: Big News for Buckeye Fans
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on October 9, 2009
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How many Ironman titles did McGhee win?
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Discussion Topic: Big News for Buckeye Fans
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on October 9, 2009
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"How many Ironman titles did McGhee win?'
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MikeR, what kid of statement is that-- makes no sense ? as u know McGhee never competed in Ironman, while Steve Luke was entered in it 4 years and won once. Your really reaching now.
for the record Ironman has had one 4Xer, a handful of 3Xers, and quite a few 2Xers. (But of course being entered in the tourn is the first step to winning it.)
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Discussion Topic: Big News for Buckeye Fans
Scott Nicola added to this discussion on October 9, 2009
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I think Mike was having some fun with you Bob.
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Discussion Topic: Big News for Buckeye Fans
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on October 9, 2009
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Mike: John McGhee beat Otto Olson 8-4 in the Sr National finals in 1996. I don't believe he was down 10-11 points in this bout based upon this information. It was a good story though. Incidentally, Olson was a 3x AA at Michigan. Obviously, he was very good. (Luke beat King. King of course won a national title last season. King was also the beneficiary of a number of improbable upsets at his weight class. I saw Otto Olson wrestle several times. he was better than King. Why am I rambling on this subject? I have no idea...)
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Discussion Topic: Big News for Buckeye Fans
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on October 9, 2009
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Bob...Of course we can agree to disagree. Little debates like this are what forums are made for. My comment about McGhee and Ironman titles was to point out the difference in schedules of the two wrestlers. I'm not reaching, Steve Luke was entered in Ironman twice as a 160-pounder. He took second losing by decision to Mark Perry (we all know how good he ended up), and then he won the title the next year. You were the one who mentioned McGhee's three undefeated seasons, I think schedule strength comes into play when you're talking about wins and losses in the regular season. How good would Steve Luke's record if he was DII and his toughest tourney of the yeay was Medina or the the Bill Dies?
It's interesting how Mr. Brakeman phrases the quote you posted, "Over the years I've seen tens of thousands of wrestlers, but no one was more outstanding to watch than McGhee." There's a big difference between most outstanding TO WATCH and most oustanding. I completely agree that big throwers who could care less about giving up big points and get in high scoring shootouts are absolutely outstanding to watch. But, and as I said before we're talking abut levels of greatness here, I think the complete wrestler doesn't go down by ten so he doesn't need to fight back and win a high scoring bout. And I appreciate a good high scoring match. I was a big fan of the two classic Brands/Gilbert matches. And even the Splete/Randleman match posted above. But with those wrestlers, and most other greats, those type matches were the exception and usually involved them getting caught in a toss...basically making a five-point error. With McGhee it happened a lot and giving up big points was a big part of his wrestling.
Another Brakeman quote:
"Like I said, you remember both his wins and his losses, including such favorites as his wins over Lewis (26-15), Judd (24-16), the Littleton classic (14-14, 6:33 OT), and Fowler (16-13) and his losses Musser (16-11) and Shamblin (5-4). This year it's been more of the same with the 13-11 win over Watson that had the crowd booing officials."
Like I said before, defense is a big part of wrestling. I guarantee McGhee gave up more points in the seven matches listed above than Luke gave up his entire career, with a much tougher schedule.
Finally, I think that winning four titles in the middle weights is amazing, but I also think it's equally amazing to go from 112 to 135 to 160 in DI and make the finals each year, winning three titles. I'm not sure starting at 135 is any more impressive then managing the huge weight jumps that Luke had. Regardless, the question was about 160-pounders, so what McGhee did at 135 or 152 is as irrelevant as what Luke did at 112 or 135.
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Discussion Topic: Big News for Buckeye Fans
Jason Johnstone added to this discussion on October 9, 2009
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I've been reading this debate for the past 3 days and have thought about all of the comments. Johnny McGhee was the first 'great' wrestler that I remember watching, and at my first state tournament when I was 8 years old I told my dad that I wanted to be like him. I didn't come close, but he was one of the greatest in Ohio history. That being said, I'm going to have to pick my former teammate, rival, and now roommate as the best 160 pounder of all-time. I'm not going to repeat any of the arguments, but I will elaborate on the strength of schedule.
The great wrestlers beat the best guys. I'm not saying in anyway that McGhee couldn't have beat the best, he never got to wrestle them, but I am saying that Steve not only wrestled the best, but he lost to and also beat the best. If teams like Graham, Eds, and Perry didn't go to the Ironman, Beast, Medina, or Powerade, their wrestlers would have unheard of records. I'll use myself as an example. I had 13 losses in high school...5 of those losses were at the Ironman, 3 were at the beast, 1 at medina. The others were at mayfield (2), tournament at thomas worthington (1 as a freshman to fedrico) and 1 to moos at the state tournament. So outside of those "big-time" tournaments I would've had 4 losses, but those big tournaments, and big losses were the reason I had success. Steve at 160 as a senior beat everyone at those tournaments, and did so in dominating fashion. I can remember him giving up one takedown to Charlie Clark of Blair (went on to win big), but other than that I don't think he got taken down the rest of the year. And I don't think he ever had 10 points scored on him in a match in his entire life. He was dominant from all positions. And if Coach Riggs didn't have us wrestle the schedule that we did year-in and year-out, we might be talking about a guy with 1 loss in his high school career, not just a kid who went 41-0 in his senior year.
1. Luke 2. McGhee 3. Mollica
And to Mr. Preusse- I don't think your argument about his 1-3 record to king is relevant. That 1 win came as a senior, the year we are talking about and the last time they wrestled. He may have lost to him in previous years, but beat him in the year we are talking about. Now if you are arguing that steve as a junior wasn't better than mcghee as a senior then you might be able to argue that fact, but a senior Luke vs. a senior McGhee, I'd put everything I own (which isn't much) on Steve.
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Discussion Topic: Big News for Buckeye Fans
Jason Johnstone added to this discussion on October 9, 2009
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and yes luke lost to king in his senior year at the dapper dan, but let's not start this debate...it was an all-star match. Brent Metcalf's record against Caldwell isn't 1-2...it's 0-2, if it doesn't show up in the official records then it doesn't count
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Discussion Topic: Big News for Buckeye Fans
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on October 9, 2009
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Jason...Not to side-track a good discussion that's going on here, but this thread started with you posting Josh Demas' intention to attend THEE Ohio State University. Obviously you're close to tOSU program and close to Demas and his practice situation. What's your take on his weight class this year? There was a discussion earlier on the thread about a possible Sulzer/Demas rematch and how it may turn out? How do you see him panning out in college? What weight do you think he projects to at the next level? Do you think he'll be college ready as a tru-frosh or more a a project in need of a couple years of seasoning? Have you seen his game develop and mature over this off-season?
And finally, the first time you wrestled him, was he able to hit his duck on you?
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Discussion Topic: Big News for Buckeye Fans
Bill Splete added to this discussion on October 9, 2009
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jason,
nice job mixing it up. if you get a chance ask coach riggs who is on his list. i would love to hear it. i would go through a wall for that guy, real stand up. i rember when he first started at perry, we used to go to that tourney. all my team mates really liked him.
i will say this once, petche is the best ohio wrestler never to win a state title period, put him on the mat with anyone and it is a dog fight, he wrestled everyone and i will tell you why mollica is not in the top 5 or maybe ten, he never beat any of us, i don't know one guy back then that lost to him, no one, in fact petche beat him more than once. in fact if bormet doesn't loose in the quaters to someone he already beat he walks through the tourney and marcus places his fresh yr.. my reason is the same as why jason put luke at the top hr wrestled and beat the beat. guys this ain't spilled milk i admire what he did, but look back find one state champ he ever wrestled
buddie beats everyone ever, but rex it would be agreat match
thanks jason for getting me fired up and opening my mouth i love it
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