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Discussion Topic: Manny being...
Marlo Stanfield added to this discussion on May 7, 2009
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Discussion Topic: Manny being...
John Ice added to this discussion on May 7, 2009
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Discussion Topic: Manny being...
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on May 8, 2009
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Quote from John Ice's post:
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"Manny being a moron."
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Manny being what most everyone else probably is these days.
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Discussion Topic: Manny being...
Rex Holman added to this discussion on May 8, 2009
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What I find interesting about this case. Manny Ramirez is a huge name. I don't follow baseball but I know who he is. 50 games is not a slap on the wrist. HCG is a drug used by steroid users when they go off a cycle to jumpstart their testes. The part of the seaon this took place. His unwillingness to fight the charge. His age.
I applaud the MLB for taking this stance. Manny Ramirez is one of their biggest stars. It suggests that a lot of people knew that he was using and giving himself an distinct advantage over other players. In doing so, he gambled that his name was too big and important to the game for MLB for them to penalize him. I guess that MLB with the 1998-200 era debacle still on their minds decided to take a proactive stance against a user. It suggests also that there is more damning evidence that is potentially uncoverable.
Good source of info.
http://grg51.typepad.com/steroid_nation/
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Discussion Topic: Manny being...
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on May 8, 2009
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Quote from Rex Holman's post:
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"50 games is not a slap on the wrist."
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I respectfully have to disagree. 50 games is but one-third of a season in baseball. In professional cycling, you are out (on the first offense) for two full seasons. In addition, the convicted rider will not be able to ride for one of the top 20 teams, in the world, for four years. That is serious time. You have to remember that Manny loses one-third of his salary but that will leave him with, what, about $18 million for the year. This is punishment? I should be hurt so bad.
He knew the risks especially in this age of heightened drug testing. I am very glad he got caught. I hope it happens to all who are cheating.
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Discussion Topic: Manny being...
Rex Holman added to this discussion on May 8, 2009
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To which I would agree to disagree. Sure its not a monetary issue, but it is in all likelihood the end of his career as he is unable to compete at a high level without the aid of drugs, he will be under increased scrutiny and his stats will fall hard. I think Manny probably sees the writing on the wall. He could play as a highly skilled 37 y/o but that will only get him so far. One nagging injury and he is washed up. JMHO.
Interesting that you mention professional cycling. Cycling has a very questionable past at best. It was at the forefront of performance enhancing drug use. I was enlightened about the sport in the book From Lance to Landis. The NGB needed to do something about the drug problem in the sport. Consequently, they took a hard line approach to cheating.
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Discussion Topic: Manny being...
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on May 9, 2009
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Quote from Rex Holman's post:
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"Interesting that you mention professional cycling. Cycling has a very questionable past at best. It was at the forefront of performance enhancing drug use. I was enlightened about the sport in the book From Lance to Landis. The NGB needed to do something about the drug problem in the sport. Consequently, they took a hard line approach to cheating."
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I mention it because I have been involved with cycling for a LONG time (even more than I have been in wrestling) and I know a fair amount about what is going on and I know a lot of the "players".
The "Lance to Landis" book is quite eye opening and I have no doubt that a lot of it is true. However, it is written by David Walsh who always seems to have an axe to grind with a certain LA. Do I think LA is clean? Nope, I am not that naive. Certain things just don't make sense to me. BTW, I am happy to hear you read the book.
The NGB (in this case USA Cycling) really has nothing to do with it, this is handled by the WADA and USADA. American football and baseball do not subscribe to the WADA doctrines and therefore do not put their athletes to the same tests. My personal belief is that the owners don't want to know what the players are doing and furthermore, they REALLY don't want to know about "recreational" drug use.
I would disagree with your thought that cycling leads the pack when it comes to performance enhancement. Look to the Soviet block countries back to the 60's (track and field, swimming, weight lifting, etc) and you will see who really led the field.
Is cycling suffering? Certainly, as some of the riders appear to be too stupid to understand that they will get caught if they dope. How can they be this ignorant? I have no idea. They deserve what ever the punishment is. My point was that a 50 game suspension is not much at all when you make $25 million per year.
Thanks for your reply.
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Discussion Topic: Manny being...
Rex Holman added to this discussion on May 9, 2009
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Jim,
Walsh does have an axe to grind. He is either making himself relevant at the expense of another or does really feel the integrity of the sport was compromised and is going after some people to expose them. I suspect that it is partly both motivations.
Regarding NGB (USA Cycling), WADA and USADA. I know better but in my hastiness to respond I made a mistake. No the owners don't want to know. They want to put out a good product and be profitable. The product is that much better when PEDS (performance enhancing drugs) are in the equation). MLB, on the other hand cannot (will not) accept a similar scenario to what happened in the late 90s through 2000s.
My statement with regard to cyclist leading the pack in drug use was in regard to EPO and its derivatives. My recall was that LeMond won it 3x showed up after winning it the following year and got dusted. Certainly other sports with large sponsorship monies are one step ahead of the drug testers.
The former Soviet Union and Eastern Block countries were by and far at the head of the curve back in the day.
I think the athletes that dope anymore are the ones that are connected to scientists that know as much or more than the testers. Also, I have learned that if someone is displaying superhuman performance then in all likelihood there is enhanced chemistry in the equation.
Excellent insight on your behalf. Thank you.
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Discussion Topic: Manny being...
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on May 10, 2009
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First, let me say that I am impressed by your knowledge of the sport of cycling.
Second, this has to be driving all the wrestling types a little crazy.
Third, several thoughts.
I agree with you about David Walsh. By creating controversy, you sell books.
I fully agree that the MLB owners can't let something like "Homer-gate" happen again. I have to wonder how Manny got caught though? Their testing isn't that rigorous and, from what I have read, the players seem to know when it is to occur. I don't think the tests are un-announced. I wonder if he got someone in the MLB offices mad a him or he simply upset someone in the Dodgers (who pay a BIG salary) by "being Manny". No proof, I just wonder.
Your mention Greg LeMond. I saw him in the US National Road Race in Louisville in 1976. I saw him ride off from the field at the 1980 Olympic Trials here in Ohio. He was amazing. However , I never thought he was "clean" as a pro. The rapid rise and fall of his abilities in 1989 and 1990 don't make any sense. In '89, he was riding the Giro d'Italia and couldn't get out of his own way till the second to last day. He was given an "iron" injection for anemia and he finished the last time trial very well. I would say that was very unusual. It was in 1991 that the slide started. By 1994, he was no longer competitive. This coincided with the introduction of EPO primarily by the Italians, most notably the Gewiss-Ballan team. At the time we didn't know it but EPO was in use BIG time. Even Lance Armstrong, the 93 World Champ, wasn't competitive. Of course, now we know why.
I very much agree with you that the users will always be ahead of the testers. After all, you can't test for something that doesn't exist (or does it?).
I also agree that if the performance seems super human, it is likely "enhanced". Too bad we think that way!
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Discussion Topic: Manny being...
Rex Holman added to this discussion on May 11, 2009
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Jim,
I knew there was more to the Lemond story. I guess the thing that made me align myself with him as an athlete is that I assumed he was clean and and got left behind by those that found a chemical edge.
I sold the Lance to Landis book but I kept a photocopy of one page in particular because it was of interest to me. It talked about Bassons and how he was very good cyclist that raced clean. He became sort of a martyr to the sport. Also, mentioned in the same context was the idea of passive doping in which you become burnt out as you are competing above your body's natural ability to race against those that are enhanced. It hits home that you are highly unlikely to beat an enhanced athlete if all other things are fairly equal.
Also, I thought Lemond making verbal accusations against Armstrong and their ongoing war of words shows how competition can denigrate into anger and hatred even though they raced in different eras. It did not make sense to me. Trek dropping Lemonds bike just goes to show that you can't spite the biggest name in the sport who is capable of generating huge sales.
Like most sports, its a soap opera and that is largely why people tune in. I found myself cheering Armstrong when I read about his miraculous comeback from cancer and how he dominated the Tour De France. After digging a little deeper, it lost its value to me.
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Discussion Topic: Manny being...
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on May 12, 2009
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Rex,
I would say you are very enlightened about cycling. I am impressed! Keep paying attention as I think the Giro (going on now) and the Tour could be very interesting.
By the way, have you noticed that Tom Boonen ('05 World Champ) was popped a second time for cocaine use? Not too sure how that helps performance.
Concerning LA, the best line I have heard was, "how can I miss you if you never go away?"
Jim
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Discussion Topic: Manny being...
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on May 12, 2009
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Quote from Jim Behrens's post:
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"By the way, have you noticed that Tom Boonen ('05 World Champ) was popped a second time for cocaine use? Not too sure how that helps performance."
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It could just be that he has an addiction.
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Discussion Topic: Manny being...
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on May 12, 2009
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Quote from Gary Sommers's post:
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"It could just be that he has an addiction."
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Well, that would be my take on it too. I must have had the sarcasm key in the off position. Haven't heard too many people actually admit to an addiction but he (Boonen) has stated that the coke is everywhere. Not sure where "everywhere" is.
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Discussion Topic: Manny being...
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on May 13, 2009
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Quote from Jim Behrens's post:
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"Well, that would be my take on it too. I must have had the sarcasm key in the off position. Haven't heard too many people actually admit to an addiction but he (Boonen) has stated that the coke is everywhere. Not sure where 'everywhere' is."
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I don't see it anywhere that I go, but I must run in different circles.
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